Southampton Golf Club (USA) Seth Raynor 1925 - A REBIRTH! (Now with Pictures)

[bstark]

   The SGC bunkering is a nightmare.

   Years of haphazard placement, different styles and yes inconsistent sand has contributed to an almost muni like feel. I am a purist and do believe bunkers should be a hazard but when you hit it short left on 7 into one of our prized traps and you dig your 60 wedge into a drainage pipe that is where I draw the line (yes it actually happened to me). On number 4, our best par 4, you see the bunkerface on the right pocked by weeds and sand this should be redone imho. Also, check out the left side of that hazard it is no longer a Raynor flat bottom. Sand if can call it that has just been dumped over the years and it cants toward the face, I am sure this was not the DESIGN intent. I believe looking at Silva's plans he proposes not only strategic changes, but redoing these obvious maintenance disasters.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:


    Our trees were planted over the years and in many instances without any reason but just to fill space. Originally, the land on the back nine was farmland, a potato farm. I don't believe there is any law preventing anyone from  removing their own plantings. Plus it is not an environmentally sensitive area.


          Gene 

Gene:

I thought the Supreme Court struck down the principle of precedent ten days ago. 

I do know there are lots of city tree ordinances which make no bones about who planted the trees, they are automtically protected if they get beyond a certain caliper -- I know because I've run up against those ordinances in Locust Valley, NY and Lake Forest, IL.  To get permission to take the trees out, you have to go through the charade of getting an arborist to come in and swear that eventually, the tree is going to die anyway.

But perhaps Southampton doesn't have a tree ordinance, and Sebonack's restrictions were strictly the result of the N.Y. State Dept. of Environmental Protection being involved in the permitting.

[jeffwarne]

   The SGC bunkering is a nightmare.

   Years of haphazard placement, different styles and yes inconsistent sand has contributed to an almost muni like feel. I am a purist and do believe bunkers should be a hazard but when you hit it short left on 7 into one of our prized traps and you dig your 60 wedge into a drainage pipe that is where I draw the line (yes it actually happened to me). On number 4, our best par 4, you see the bunkerface on the right pocked by weeds and sand this should be redone imho. Also, check out the left side of that hazard it is no longer a Raynor flat bottom. Sand if can call it that has just been dumped over the years and it cants toward the face, I am sure this was not the DESIGN intent. I believe looking at Silva's plans he proposes not only strategic changes, but redoing these obvious maintenance disasters.

Brian,
I would hope the completed bunkers would have the look and feel we've observed on other Raynor originals/restorations.
Certainly the present bunkers are not a match for Southampton's wonderful greens.

[Dave Greene]

   Hi everyone. I'm Dave Greene and posting for the first time. I have been enjoying GCA.com for a while as there is a lot of great stuff here. I wanted to jump in here and respond to some of the thoughts and comments about our work at Southampton Golf Club.

We have been working toward this end for most of the past decade. Lots of consulting, research, aerial photos, old photos, etc. I think we have done our home work and are not just going forward on a whim. The education of our membership has been a big part of what we have done and we continue with that process.

The tree removal this winter certainly is drastic but I think very needed. We have been culling out trees for a few years now and we got our approval from the membership to go forward with our "sympathetic restoration". We got a real good price to finish the tree removal we started some years ago. We have now given Brian Silva some room to work with as we install Raynor style bunkers.

I hope to post more photos soon to show some of what we have done not just this winter but over the past few years.

After the bunker work is done we plan on enlarging our greens and we will make them more square. We are fortunate to have most of the original green pads intact. Hopefully we will do as fine a job as Donnie Beck did at Fisher's Island. His work on squaring and enlarging the greens is second to none.

To some of Jeff's points:

Yes Jeff time will tell how this all works out and I am confident it will work out well. I play at SGC with some of the superintendants on the east end and one of the questions I posed to them and others was if you could leave 5 or 6 trees on these back nine holes what trees would you leave. We thought about it over a few weeks and could not really find a tree that should stay. They were either unhealthy or placed in the wrong spots. Rows of Silver Maples just off of the fairway just does not work too well on a old Seth Raynor course.

The trees we removed that "straightend" the doglegs for the longer hitters had the drip lines well into the fairway over the fairway/rough line. We will be anchoring the dogleg 13th hole with mounds, bunkers and fescues. I anticipate this to be a wonderful improvement.

It is amazing the new angles of play into the greens we will have and up to now was in jail behind a Silver Maple. The subtle contours that seemed lost are now more pronounced.

We are planning on growing fescues and adding some mounding with the extra soil we will have after lowering the bunkers throughout the course. We will get some definition back I am sure. IF we decide to plant any trees we can now put the appropriate type of tree in the appropriate spot. 

Our space around these holes that have been cleared seems so much bigger now. It is amazing how much space these trees took up.

I think we have done a good job over the past few years upgrading our course and hopefully we will continue to do so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

bstark, jeffwarne & gene greco,

With respect to the reference of misplaced bunkers, wouldn't the website, Historicaerials.com be able to provide a chronological record of the bunker configuration and placements ?

A dilema that architects face in restoration is whether to replace a bunker at its exact location, OR yp place it where if would perform its intended function, but, in the context of today's golf world ?

I would opt for the latter, with perhaps a duplication incorporating the former

With respect to interior tree removal, NGLA and Oakmont did a superb job as did Shinnecock, years ago.
GCGC has also done great work as have other courses.

I prefer the removal of trees where it replicates the early origins of the golf course.

[Gene Greco]

bstark, jeffwarne & gene greco,

With respect to the reference of misplaced bunkers, wouldn't the website, Historicaerials.com be able to provide a chronological record of the bunker configuration and placements ?

A dilema that architects face in restoration is whether to replace a bunker at its exact location, OR yp place it where if would perform its intended function, but, in the context of today's golf world ?

I would opt for the latter, with perhaps a duplication incorporating the former

With respect to interior tree removal, NGLA and Oakmont did a superb job as did Shinnecock, years ago.
GCGC has also done great work as have other courses.

I prefer the removal of trees where it replicates the early origins of the golf course.

Patrick:


   We have as reference the aerials from 1938, 1947, 1954, 1960, etc.

Hopefully, Dave will be able to post them for all to study the course evolution.

If not, I will try to post them next week when I return from Fl.


    Gene

[jeffwarne]

   Hi everyone. I'm Dave Greene and posting for the first time. I have been enjoying GCA.com for a while as there is a lot of great stuff here. I wanted to jump in here and respond to some of the thoughts and comments about our work at Southampton Golf Club.

We have been working toward this end for most of the past decade. Lots of consulting, research, aerial photos, old photos, etc. I think we have done our home work and are not just going forward on a whim. The education of our membership has been a big part of what we have done and we continue with that process.

The tree removal this winter certainly is drastic but I think very needed. We have been culling out trees for a few years now and we got our approval from the membership to go forward with our "sympathetic restoration". We got a real good price to finish the tree removal we started some years ago. We have now given Brian Silva some room to work with as we install Raynor style bunkers.

I hope to post more photos soon to show some of what we have done not just this winter but over the past few years.

After the bunker work is done we plan on enlarging our greens and we will make them more square. We are fortunate to have most of the original green pads intact. Hopefully we will do as fine a job as Donnie Beck did at Fisher's Island. His work on squaring and enlarging the greens is second to none.

To some of Jeff's points:

Yes Jeff time will tell how this all works out and I am confident it will work out well. I play at SGC with some of the superintendants on the east end and one of the questions I posed to them and others was if you could leave 5 or 6 trees on these back nine holes what trees would you leave. We thought about it over a few weeks and could not really find a tree that should stay. They were either unhealthy or placed in the wrong spots. Rows of Silver Maples just off of the fairway just does not work too well on a old Seth Raynor course.

The trees we removed that "straightend" the doglegs for the longer hitters had the drip lines well into the fairway over the fairway/rough line. We will be anchoring the dogleg 13th hole with mounds, bunkers and fescues. I anticipate this to be a wonderful improvement.

It is amazing the new angles of play into the greens we will have and up to now was in jail behind a Silver Maple. The subtle contours that seemed lost are now more pronounced.

We are planning on growing fescues and adding some mounding with the extra soil we will have after lowering the bunkers throughout the course. We will get some definition back I am sure. IF we decide to plant any trees we can now put the appropriate type of tree in the appropriate spot. 

Our space around these holes that have been cleared seems so much bigger now. It is amazing how much space these trees took up.

I think we have done a good job over the past few years upgrading our course and hopefully we will continue to do so.

Dave,
Thanks for posting. I look forward to a great product.

My comments were generally directed at those who would bestow greatness (or condemnation) on a project based on a few early stage ,difficult to see at best pictures of a course they had never seen.
The pictures of #12 made it look downright claustrophic and that's a hole I used to take a virtual running start to try to kill it it was so inviting and wide open.(and the scene of the longest drive contest in most member events.)

I'm well aware this project has been a long time in the planning and I have been a supporter of a sympathetic restoration/renovation as long as it did not put undue financial burden on our working class membership,  unduly close the course for an extended period as I have witnessed at clubs I have belonged to or worked at, or MOST IMPORTANTLY, come out worse, as I have seen on several occasions at clubs I was associated with-Augusta CC with Nicklaus---Doral/Floyd---Sleepy Hollow/Rees. (the definition of this being a complete redo very soon after the renovation)



In refererence to your comment about "lowering bunkers".
Do you mean deeper?
Are there any water table issues? looking left or right into the woods on many holes there is water/swamp at a level just below fairway grade-will this present any problems going deeper?( Which I assume you're doing if you're gaining material.)
Hopefully we'll see more Raynorlike bold features so prevelant  at Fishers,CC of Charleston(beautiful work on a dead flat site),Yeamans Hall and Mountain Lake.

After growing up at Augusta CC (which architecturally had become a real mess with inhouse changes and a Nicklaus 80's tweaking) I enjoyed much/most of the Silva renovation/resoration there, but felt it was a bit unduly penal to higher handicappers/shorter hitters while not really affecting the strategy of the lower handicapper or longer hitter.
Certainly the membership(based purely on an anecdotal sampling) was mixed in its' reviews, but their taste/ill advised adjustments was what got the course in such disarray in the first place over 60 year's time.

Thanks again for your post.

[bstark]

"In refererence to your comment about "lowering bunkers".
Do you mean deeper?
Are there any water table issues? looking left or right into the woods on many holes there is water/swamp at a level just below fairway grade-will this present any problems going deeper?( Which I assume you're doing if you're gaining material.)"

Jeff,
  I believe over the years that many of our bunkers have "risen" due to the fact they have just dumped material into the hazards. I think the front bunker on #2 is a good example of bottom creep. George Bahto told me for that to be a "real Raynor" you would barely be able to see the flagstick. Think about that daunting shot, kinda like being on the right side of #4!! As to water issues I know they will some problems on #7, our redan. I forgot what the original bunkers on the left side look like but that is a low spot. Hopefully Dave can post the aerials from days gone by.

[Dave Greene]

Jeff,
I beleive the photos of #12 were from 2004 and it was claustrophobic and not too much better after a few years of culling out trees. At least IMHO. After culling it was still rows of silver maples too close to the fairway. We really wanted to leave a few trees here and there but nothing seemed to make sense. If the trees were planted in groves or clusters out of the way a bit we could have had a combination of trees and open fescue areas. I really think the holes needed some width, sort of old school I guess.

We could have water table issues on the left side of the first green and on the left side of the 7th green as Brian mentioned. The left side of the 1st green had a flat and very shallow bunker which we have a good photo of. The bunkers left of the 7th green have always had a problem with water from the swamp. I hope we get the fairway on the left side of 7 to a lower grade and sloping gradually into the swamp so we can at least get a peek of the left side bunkers from the tee. That fairway was raised some years ago due to flooding.

During the bunker "modernization" 1968 - 1970 soil was taken from what is now our practice range and used to build up around the green pads and for the fairway bunkers too. We lost most of the "roll off" around the greens and also lost the look of the greens standing up out of the ground. I don't see many, if any Raynor bunkers higher than the green but that is what we ended up with. As we pull the soil away we will use it to create some mounding and definition where appropriate. I am not going to say that we are going to be building mounds that are really bold. I will leave that up to Brian Silva. I don't think many realize though how bold the mounds and surrounds used to be at Southampton Golf Club.  We started to square up the greens two years ago with our mowing patterns but it soon became clear that it was a waste of time to do it until the bunkers and soil were lowered.

One of the reasons they did away with the cross bunkers is for the same reason you mention;that the high handicappers didn't like them. So they bulldozed them under and planted rows of silver maples and for decades we played on an overgrown bowling alley.

I appreciate your posts Jeff.

[jeffwarne]

Quote from Dave Green
 "As we pull the soil away we will use it to create some mounding and definition where appropriate. I am not going to say that we are going to be building mounds that are really bold. I will leave that up to Brian Silva. I don't think many realize though how bold the mounds and surrounds used to be at Southampton Golf Club." 

"One of the reasons they did away with the cross bunkers is for the same reason you mention;that the high handicappers didn't like them. So they bulldozed them under and planted rows of silver maples and for decades we played on an overgrown bowling alley."


[/quote]

Dave,

I would love to see a return at Southampton to the bold mounds and surrounds you reference.
I am also a big fan of cross bunkering-I hope to see an (interpretive) restoration of that as well.
Keep up the good work

[Dave Greene]

Jeff,

The cross bunkers will be put back at or near where they once were.

Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

 We have as reference the aerials from 1938, 1947, 1954, 1960, etc.

Hopefully, Dave will be able to post them for all to study the course evolution.

If not, I will try to post them next week when I return from Fl.

Where are you in Florida ?
Do you want to play Pine Tree ?

Is there a DATE you're targeting with respect to restoration ?
 

[Dave Greene]

The Bunker project at SGC is scheduled to start on Setember 7th.

Dave

[Kevin Pallier]

Gene / Dave

Any report or pics as to how the course is looking now as Summer kicks off ?

[Mark Hissey]

I played a week ago. The transformation is amazing already and the bunker work is still to come.

The pond area around 4, 5 and 6 is superb. It's so wide open and looks like is has been there forever. However, the transformation of 12-18 is nothing short incredible. In particular, I think 13 looks entirely different. It is a superb hole. 

[Mike Sweeney]

I played today as 15 holes are now open. My camera died and I am on the wrong computer but the changes are simply great. For fans of Silva's work at Mountain Lake in Florida and Tamarack in CT, this is a really nice addition to his portfolio. Green extensions, new Raynor style bunkers at every green and the removal of lots and lots of trees. The vistas on the course now remind you of the nearby neighbors.

Two beers and two bowls of chili in the quaint golf only clubhouse after the round. Southampton GC really is the new hidden gem for the golf architecture geek.

[Mark Hissey]

#16 is quite stunning. I can't wait to see it when it is finished.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Awesome Gene.  Good luck.

[John Kirk]

Congratulations to the Southampton GC members.  Great story.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Gene I am so happy for you and the membership. My fingers have been crossed this would come true since the rumors began. If it turns out as good as Mountain lake then you will play your days out on as fun a course as you could ever dream for. The neighborhood only gets better and better. National, Shinny, Sebonack and now Southampton returned to the glory it deserves. All touching and all great.

[Gene Greco]

Bump

[rjsimper]

Awesome place, great course. Having never seen it before,  my impression based on "before" photos was that the look itself was greatly improved which is huge...but having played it now i think it's possible that the improvements in play may even surpass that. What a fun course to play.  I could chip and putt around the 9th green all day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan,

I think you hit on THE critical element.........FUN.

The challenge presented is just flat out FUN.

What the pictures never capture is the......... WIND

The wind, which Southampton gets plenty of, adds exponentially to the challenge and the FUN.

Southampton, Shinnecock, NGLA and Sebonack all enjoy that most wonderful of assets.

Awesome place, great course. Having never seen it before,  my impression based on "before" photos was that the look itself was greatly improved which is huge...but having played it now i think it's possible that the improvements in play may even surpass that. What a fun course to play.  I could chip and putt around the 9th green all day.

[Joe Bausch]

This is one of many informative older threads on Southampton.  Some of the links to the photos are broken.

I played SGC last weekend and really enjoyed it.

Here is a fairly comprehensive photo tour on this Raynor gem:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Southampton/index.html

[Mike Sweeney]

Really amazed how close the road is here. It is a quiet road, but still surprised.


Thanks for the update Joe.