Southampton Golf Club (USA) Seth Raynor 1925 - A REBIRTH! (Now with Pictures)

[John Mayhugh]

John Mayhugh:

       You're right. If you golf it doesn't stink living in Southampton!

I don't know - it could be hell.  Just think about living there and not being a member or knowing anyone at one of the great clubs in your area. Driving past them would be pretty painful.

Big guy I did that for something like 10 years (weekends). 

I know, I know nobody is crying for me. 

I am.....you're just too far away to hear me.

[Gene Greco]

#12 "Long"

[Gene Greco]

Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier!

[Gene Greco]

#12 Post Tree Removal

[Gene Greco]

"Long"  1925

[John Mayhugh]

Gene,
The pics you posted are a little small to study in detail, but large enough to say holy crap what a difference!

[Brad Swanson]

Congrats Gene!  The before/after photos are barely distinguishable as the same hole.  How is the grass where the trees used to be going to be maintained? 

Brad

[Chris Flamion]

ohhh my lord....so much more inviting off the tee.  Congrats on such a great removal

[Kevin Pallier]

Gee whiz Gene - looks like someone will have woodstocks for the next 30 years 

Is the intention to have the rough in a similar height / style as it's neighbour ?

[Gene Greco]

Gee whiz Gene - looks like someone will have woodstocks for the next 30 years  

Is the intention to have the rough in a similar height / style as it's neighbour ?

Actually, the mighty course next door in its present form is 6 years YOUNGER than ours so I guess you could say THEIR rough is similar to ours in certain sections and to what the rest will look like when it is restored.  

In this town, with one course considered among the great moderns and two courses each considered by different camps to individually be the flat out best golf course in the world, it is about time we put our best face forward.

To provide a more links type golf experience will be a joy for our members and closer to the original intentions that Seth Raynor had for his home club.

      

[Gene Greco]

Congrats Gene!  The before/after photos are barely distinguishable as the same hole.  How is the grass where the trees used to be going to be maintained? 

Brad

Thanks, Brad. The grass will be crispy come August.

 

[jeffwarne]

ohhh my lord....so much more inviting off the tee.  Congrats on such a great removal

Southampton was always inviting off the tee.

Not sure fecsue/bluestem (replacing trees with light rough underneath) will make it more inviting.(certainly not if you are hunting balls-or behind a group doing so)

I applaud the restoration of the old bunker style and placement(or at least interpretive placement)
Fortunately the greens were virtually unchanged over the years.
While no doubt like most every Golden Age course, Southampton had a glut of planted trees that needed thinning/removal,......Not sure that a course completely surrounded by trees should suddenly lose ALL trees on the interior with 4-5 parallel/adjacent holes on the back nine. There were some beautiful mature hardwoods on the back nine. Recent thinning had turned doglegs into straight holes for longer hitters.
That said the thinning of the trees up to this point has been an attractive feature allowing looks across the course not seen in years,
Curious what Raynor's original thoughts were when he designed the course on future growth/planting of selective trees.

We here on GCA tend to get all fired up about restorations, but I don't think anyone's looking for a return to greens that stimp at 5-6 as they did in 1925.
I'm sure there's some room in golf for a few mature trees on hundred year old courses that are surrounded by mature trees.
Looking forward to the finished product and certainly will reserve judgement until then.
Either way it will continue to be a great club/course.

[Jordan Wall]

Wow, cool pictures, what a change!

Why don't more clubs look at how well this worked and feed off that!?

[jeffwarne]

Wow, cool pictures, what a change!

Why don't more clubs look at how well this worked and feed off that!?

Jordan,
It was done this winter.
How do you know how "well" it worked?
I'm confident it will be great, but let's at least wait until it's completed and mature(2011 at the earliest)
Silva's work at Augusta CC was greeted with mixed reviews by the membership for the most part .

No doubt many clubs will be observing how "well" this goes.
It's certainly a good neighborhood to be undergoing such work as Shinnecock and NGLA both detreed massively a few years back.

[Jordan Wall]

Jeff,

I don't know how well it plays, I've never been there, but I know how tree removal can change a hole or course. 

All I am qualified to say is that the hole looks a lot better.  Also, it looks a lot closer to the original design of the hole.  But, knowing how trees can affect playing angles and how much I don't like to be squeezed in, I'm sure it plays better as well.  With trees blocking a hole, there is only one way to play a hole - straight.  Basing off that, I'm guessing it plays a lot better now.

In any case, it looks a lot better.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is good news, Gene.

I heard Southampton doesn't have a prevailing wind, is that right?

JC:

I'm sure  Mucci the Cyber Bobo Doll  will be happy to provide you with half a century of wind readings from all 22 of the regional, national and international airports within 90 miles of Southampton and then, and only then, may we draw a conclusion regarding from where and at what frequency a prevailing wind may exist.

No need to access wind readings from 22 regional, national and international airports, the direction of the main runway at the nearby, former Air Force base, home of the fighter interceptor and sea rescue squadrons, along with the direction of the nearby Easthampton Airport runways confirms what those of us who aren't tactilely and directionally challenged already knew.

There are prevailing winds that sweep Southampton, the same ones that sweep Shinnecock and NGLA  

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is good news, Gene.

I heard Southampton doesn't have a prevailing wind, is that right?

JC:

  I'm sure  Mucci the Cyber Bobo Doll  will be happy to provide you with half a century of wind readings from all 22 of the regional, national and international airports within 90 miles of Southampton and then, and only then, may we draw a conclusion regarding from where and at what frequency a prevailing wind may exist.

I'd feel bad for you Gene but I just got done with him trying to convince me there were no swamps in Florida

That's a disengenuous statement.
There are plenty of swamps in Florida, but, they don't build golf courses on them.

To help you understand that concept, look up a two word phrase, "water table"

Once you understand swamps and "water tables", you'll begin to understand why they don't build golf courses on swamps.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

I always wondered when Southampton would fall in step with its neighbors.

Shinnecock and NGLA began tree clearing projects years ago, with dramatic results.

I'm glad that Southampton has done the same.

Now, those prevailing winds that you've been unable to discern, at the courses you play, will become more apparent  and influence play more.

I'm anxious to see the course in its improved state and I promise I won't mention anything about wind, let alone prevailing wind, unless it's blowing.

[Paul Jones]

Thanks for the pictures.

[Ed Oden]

Gene,
The pics you posted are a little small to study in detail, but large enough to say holy crap what a difference!

John, just click on the link immediately below a picture and it should pull the photo up in a format you can zoom.

[Tom_Doak]

Gene,

I always wondered when Southampton would fall in step with its neighbors.

Shinnecock and NGLA began tree clearing projects years ago, with dramatic results.

I'm glad that Southampton has done the same.

What I can't understand is that in this same township and political jurisdiction, when we were building Sebonack, we were strictly limited on the area of trees that we were allowed to cut, and required by law to restore some areas to native L.I. sand dune habitat.

How does it make sense to have one set of laws for new courses and another for existing courses?  I understand that certain things are grandfathered in, but not what we are discussing here.

[Mike Sweeney]

Gene,

I always wondered when Southampton would fall in step with its neighbors.

Shinnecock and NGLA began tree clearing projects years ago, with dramatic results.

I'm glad that Southampton has done the same.

What I can't understand is that in this same township and political jurisdiction, when we were building Sebonack, we were strictly limited on the area of trees that we were allowed to cut, and required by law to restore some areas to native L.I. sand dune habitat.

How does it make sense to have one set of laws for new courses and another for existing courses?  I understand that certain things are grandfathered in, but not what we are discussing here.

1. Sebonack is on the water, Southampton is not.

2. I don't know the actual numbers, but probably 80% of the town board are members of SGC. Just about every lawyer in town is a member and the judges and the ......

[Gene Greco]

Gene,

I always wondered when Southampton would fall in step with its neighbors.

Shinnecock and NGLA began tree clearing projects years ago, with dramatic results.

I'm glad that Southampton has done the same.

What I can't understand is that in this same township and political jurisdiction, when we were building Sebonack, we were strictly limited on the area of trees that we were allowed to cut, and required by law to restore some areas to native L.I. sand dune habitat.

How does it make sense to have one set of laws for new courses and another for existing courses?  I understand that certain things are grandfathered in, but not what we are discussing here.

Tom:


    Our trees were planted over the years and in many instances without any reason but just to fill space. Originally, the land on the back nine was farmland, a potato farm. I don't believe there is any law preventing anyone from  removing their own plantings. Plus it is not an environmentally sensitive area.


          Gene 

[bstark]

  Ah the NY State DEC, what a wonderful group of guys.  They probably found those pesky little salamanders on the north side of Sebonac Rd. Tom. Come on you gotta stay current with their endangered species list.....

  The best thing about SGC work is that the membership finally gets it. After years of redoing pro shops and hiring restaurant managers they finally are gonna redo a classic. Jeff, I agree we should reserve judgement on the final product but those trees on the back are almost all ornamental and do nothing for the golf course. They should continue the clearing around 9, 10 and 11. The grass is dying in the 9th fairway from encroachment. They lost 10 green a few years back since the green had become like a claustrophobic closet. 11 feels like a tight hallway...I say keep going. I look forward to the bunker restoration as I will not miss the inconsistent sand, the weed chocked faces and the overrall amoeba like quality of our current bunkers.

[jeffwarne]

 
(Quote from bstark)
"I look forward to the bunker restoration as I will not miss the inconsistent sand, the weed chocked faces and the overrall amoeba like quality of our current bunkers."
[/quote]

Brian,
I look forward to the restoration/renovation if it involves a more thoughtful, strategic placement and an improvement of aesthetics.
No doubt a quality construction of such will contribute to the overall charm and old feel of the place, and elimination of the 60's look of what you describe as amoebas.

I certainly would say that I would not endorse such a project if the overall goal is simply elimination of "weed chocked faces" (of which I've never noticed or cared about), or "consistent" sand.
  I've never noticed "inconsistent" sand at Southampton, but if they do have it, it's merely a further examination of skill in a HAZARD and product of the game being played outdoors in an enviroment which will only get more variable due to increased exposure to wind.
As a member at Friar's Head, I'm surprised to hear you comment about inconsistent sand as Friar's Head is one of the last bastions of sand being a hazard (at least if you play in the afternoon)
My hope is that some of these bunkers are scary and downright unfair(and they become the real hazards and increase thought and strategy), so that the elimination of trees doesn't cause a reaction of planting and maintaining excessive tall grass in their place-which is not as easy or cost free to manage as many think and can be a real annoyance searching and or waiting for others to do so.