[Jud_T]

Clearly completely unfair.  Should immediately be flattened out!

[Jud_T]

Seriously,

Fairness may be a goal for a tour event, but certainly not for a club that guys are going to play over and over possibly hundreds of times.  Fair equals boring in this context...Nothing is more exciting than coming to a hole all square in a match and having a little, or a lot, of rub of the green involved...
My former club was eminently fair, and ultimately uninteresting.   One of the reasons I'm no longer a member.  Overwatered, overmanicured, great putting conditions, but ultimately uninteresting green complexes and a numbing sameness to shot requirements...

[Sean_A]

Sean,

While theoetically all roll is predictable, I am not sure bounces are due to differences in spin, etc.  For that matter, the real issue as the contours get more random is whether a golfer could land a shot on any of those little knobs, esp. in photo 1, which IMHO is just a crappy design or condition.

I relooked at the other photos, esp. no. 3 and I may be wrong, but those random contours appear to smooth out a few yards in front of the green, probably intentionally to allow the shot to roll up from the front out of necessity.  I think most people would probably do the same, as I don't think total or reduced predictablility encourages the ground game.  In other words, a general (but not perfectly constant) slope one way or the other is probably required to encourage some one to "play it here to get it there."

In photo 1, the only real option is to fly it at the green.  The mico contours have to be such that they can be used somewhat predictably used or a thinking/strategic golfer won't take the chance.

Jeff

I well and truly hate the word "random" being associated with golf.  Its similar to "fair" in that the word is totally misunderstood and misused.  There is nothing random about the results of golf shots.  

Spin is part of any shot and for the very experienced, it too is predictable.  How the heck else do we explain one hop n' stop?  It ain't luck.

I am not surprised to your reaction concerning the first photo.  I don't know what caused those micro-undulations, I suspect grazing sheep over many years, but I can assure you that playing through them very possible for the experienced.  Indeed, the THINKING golfer, after some consideration, often chooses to play through them because circumstances often dictate that to be the best/safest play for the handicap player.    

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

I don't know what caused them either,  but have seen similar deals in Texas where there used to be onion fields that settled in. I still can't see how they would play because most golfers, even the best, can't hit 150 yards to a spot a few feet wide, which is what it would take in that case to "predict" which way a shot would bounce.  I like the bigger contours both visually and for play.

Maybe its just me as I see your other thread.

[Tim Nugent]

It's been my experience that people use "fair" as a catch all to support their agenda.  You have to dig down and try to get an understanding of  their definition of "fair".  Personally, I have always said fair and golf are 2 four-letter words that probably shouldn't be used in the same sentence (if they are referring to "rub of the green" as I think many posting here are"). However, if by "fair" they mean a player should have a chance ie. a 200 yard forced carry, that's different.  As long as Aunt Sally has a way to bunt it around and not be forced to pick-up because something is just physically not-doable, or hazards/conditioning is such that it overwhelmingly favors one class of player over all others I think everything is fair. (An example of this is a club I just remodeled that had a penchant for bunkers to extend across landing areas (leaving 8-12 yds of fairway) right where all but the long hitters would end up.  Many average players had to lay-up while the big hitters just bombed over it and were left with a wedge (or iron on a par 5).
So my advice is to examine WHY they are involkng the might "fair".

[Garland Bayley]

...

Anywhere, here is the approach shot on the 14th hole at Secession.  By far, my favorite hole on the course.  



more to come...

Mac,

Does the picture show an approach over all water? What do you classify this as in the range of more predictable to less predictable?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Play to their gambling nature. Buy each of the members (or at least the greens committee members) one of these......



....and remind them how much fun a surprise is.

Most folks that I know lead rather predictable lives. You'd think it wouldn't be hard to get them to enjoy some unpredictability now and then, especially where it can do them no harm, at play.

Thanks Jim,

Not exactly what I had in mind, but I think I can use it.

[Garland Bayley]

Great set of pics Sean. Thanks!

Garland

I am thinking what you really mean is less predictable is better than more predictable.  All shots under the sun are predictable with enough experience - in theory anyway.  Sure, some are far less predictable than others and to show this I would first have photos where the course is obviously firm.  Then of the firm photos I would focus on the ones where there is at least a bit of micro movement in the ground - think TOC. Another element which makes shots less predictable is elevation change, but this is hard to depict in photos.  Finally, wind makes predictability difficult, but that too is hard to depict in photos.    

Here is an example of micro-undulations which make shot prediction very difficult other than to know if one flies the green he will likely be chipping back.  The problem with this sort of design is many folks don't want to play it on a daily basis - they just can't take the difficult to predict nature of this sort of golf.  


So you could go to more macro-undulations which are a sort of compromise because with these sorts of land formations it is definitely easier to predict what will happen, but generally this sort of thing is far more dramatic than micro-undulations.  It sort of fits the looks hard plays easier mode of design.  




You could also move into undulations which are so large as to create blind shots. However, this too is difficult to depict in photos and it has the added issue of many folks not really going for blind shots.  

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

Garland...

It is marsh and if you land in it...you might have a chance at recovery.  It was not like water where you automatically have to take a drop...so there is some unpredictability.  Especially on a shot just landing short of the pin.  See how close it is to the marsh?  A few feet of difference can mean being on the green or descending into the mud and muck to try to escapse the marsh.

Also, those trees flanking the green can cut someone off from having a clear shot at the green.  Again some unpredictablility on similiar shots.  Although, I know most are opposed to trees on a golf course.

The hole may not be the best hole in the world, but I think you get the thrill of a heroic carry...but the chance to recover from the marsh rather than being dead if it was water.  Perhaps that type of concept could be carried out at your club in lieu of water.

Just an idea.

Also, it was pointed out to me via PM that those wavy hills behind the green look super natural and really add a lot to the strategic interest of the hole.  You might want to copy those as well!!!    Obvously, I am kidding on that one.

[Garland Bayley]

Great set of illustrations Mac. Can you identify the first two. I assume the third is #17 at Pete Dye Golf Club.

Keep them coming please.

Ok...

my last post showed an interesting/exciting approach...here is one that is certainly fair and predictable, but not as exciting...



And here is a green that is very fair...but so "fair" that no matter where I hit the green I two putt from with very little problem.  I can be 60 feet, 30 feet, or 10 feet and I will do no worse than 2 putt.  Is that what golfers want?



Now here is a green I've heard many, many people complain is unfair.  But I LOVE it.  Unpredictable, exciting, fun.



I can look for fair tee shots vs. exiting/unpredicatable tee shots if you want.  Just let me know.

[Mac Plumart]

Yep...will do...I'm taking 5 at work, but will post again tonight.

The first is the 2nd at Sapphire Valley in Cashiers, NC.

The second is the 5th at Achasta in Dahlonega, GA.

And, yes, the last was the 17th green at the PDGC of WV. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
That said, I have more than once described my design philosophy in similar terms. I once played a pro - am with Fuzzy Zoeller who hit one way right only to see it hit a mound and bouce on the green.  The whole time the ball is in the air he is muttering....Oh shit, Oh shit, ......Oh shit, its PERFECT!   So, I do try to put some OS, OS, OSIP shots in each design with kick in banks, etc.  If I were Garland, I would use this story because if a famous pro says they like the feeling, it seems to carry more weight.
...

Great story Jeff! I'll definitely try to use it.

[Garland Bayley]

Yep...will do...I'm taking 5 at work, but will post again tonight.

The first is the 2nd at Sapphire Valley in Cashiers, NC.

The second is the 5th at Achasta in Dahlonega, GA.

And, yes, the last was the 17th green at the PDGC of WV. 

Speaking of Dahlonega, have you ever been to Garland, GA near Dahlonega?

[Garland Bayley]

Great image Jud, from a great course! Thanks! If I can't wake them up with that, they aren't gonna be woken!
 

Clearly completely unfair.  Should immediately be flattend out!

[Eric Smith]

Garland...

It is marsh and if you land in it...you might have a chance at recovery.  

The hole may not be the best hole in the world, but I think you get the thrill of a heroic carry...but the chance to recover from the marsh rather than being dead if it was water.  

I can vouch for the marsh recovery there.  I was wide left in it a few times that day and was thrilled to live again when finding my ball in the sandy tidelands.  Mac your par on 17 was world class and your wedge is surely reclassified as a weapon of mass destruction!

[Mac Plumart]

Eric...Frankly, I don't think you go far enough when you say my par on 17 was world class.  I think it would be more appropriate to say my entire game is world class!!!!      ...never mind the double digit handicap...   

And we all know the real WMD is your putter!!!   

[Garland Bayley]

Melvyn,

Is that Devil's Golf Course in Death Valley?



When I was at Devil's Golf Course I posed for a picture taking a stance gripping thin air and everyone who looks at the picture swears I am holding a golf club. The terrain apparently is so busy it tricks the eye into adding a small detail.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Garland

I have to be honest here, its my new design to bring the so called current Golden Age to a close by trying to dissuade people from using carts and electronic range finders.

My thought were based upon, if the ride is just too bumpy, then no one will use carts, and if you can’t see the ball let alone a flag just what good are these electronic distance or yardage aids.

In fact it is my tribute course to the distance nuts who want 7,600 yards plus courses showing that total distance is not what golf is all about, its navigating around a course designed by a strategic and penal designer to see if you can overcome the design. I think I may have achieved the unachievable by stopping carts in their tracks and making any form of distance notes irrelevant as you can’t see the flag let alone find the ball.

See even I can design a course on land NOT fit for purpose, nor for the greater good of golfers, yet very profitable for the ball makers as we expect tens of thousands of ball to be lost within the first 250-300 yards of each Tee

Yet how many feel the testosterone levels rising, I would not be surprised to see it close to the top in the next list of best 100 courses worldwide. I must say that I owe my pending success, all of it to this site, for showing me the way towards the heart of the modern player.

Melvyn

PS My press agent has just phoned and there is some talk of being nominated for The Old Tom Morris Award for 2011, but I have had to decline the nomination due to the expected flood of allegations of nepotism from Mr P Craig and friends. Can’t see why as I have never met this guy called Old Tom, but I must be seen to be fair. Normal service will be resumed 10 seconds after I have taken these pills, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And a goodnight to all of you.

 

[Eric Smith]

Eric...Frankly, I don't think you go far enough when you say my par on 17 was world class.  I think it would be more appropriate to say my entire game is world class!!!!      ...never mind the double digit handicap...   

And we all know the real WMD is your putter!!!   

Thanks...if only they weren't bogey putts. 

As for your game, you know how I feel about that, but let me type it out here for others to read and know: I have never seen a better swing on a two year old golfer.  Meaning someone who has only played for 2 years, not a toddler! 

[Mac Plumart]

Garland...

Here is a "fair" par 5 and an unprecitable par 5.  

3rd hole at St. Ives in Duluth, GA.  Hit it straight and you are fine.  Hook or slice/draw or fade and you are in bunkers.  Frankly, I think the hole is "ok" for what it is and that is a "breather" hole.  I certainly wouldn't want a course full of these types of holes...but one every now and then is ok...I suppose.



7th at the Standard Club in Duluth, GA.  Hit it 180ish to clear the gunk.  Hit is 230ish (from the tees I play) to be on flat ground.  Hit it more than 250 and your on the uphill slope.  The hole doglegs right and plays to an uphill green.




Here is a fabulous par 4.  The 7th at Inverness.  It requires strategy off the tee and accuracy and power.  The creek makes the hole somewhat unpredictable and if you could see the green you would love its multple tiers and slopes.



Here are two very good par 3's.  IMO.

17th at  Black Diamond Ranch Quarry.  225 yards tee shot (from the tees I play)...




12th at the Country Club of Columbus.  I love the unpreditable nature of the green.  Makes the hole a lot of fun.

[Mac Plumart]

Eric...

Just saw your post.  Thanks.  It means a lot.  I've been trying hard to be able to play this game better and now that my legs are coming around, I continue to hit it better.  You should have seen me play when I had to put all my weight on my back leg (right leg) and try to play.  Let's just say you've got to play a MASSIVE fade on every shot when you do that. 

Anyway, I hope I can continue to improve...but if I don't I still LOVE the game.  And I mean a gut busting love...not just kinda love it sometimes when things are going well.

Let's hook up again soon!!

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks again Mac! I think the Inverness hole will allow me to make a point about creek unpredictablilty vs. pond predictablilty.

Garland...

Here is a "fair" par 5 and an unprecitable par 5.  

3rd hole at St. Ives in Duluth, GA.  Hit it straight and you are fine.  Hook or slice/draw or fade and you are in bunkers.  Frankly, I think the hole is "ok" for what it is and that is a "breather" hole.  I certainly wouldn't want a course full of these types of holes...but one every now and then is ok...I suppose.



7th at the Standard Club in Duluth, GA.  Hit it 180ish to clear the gunk.  Hit is 230ish (from the tees I play) to be on flat ground.  Hit it more than 250 and your on the uphill slope.  The hole doglegs right and plays to an uphill green.




Here is a fabulous par 4.  The 7th at Inverness.  It requires strategy off the tee and accuracy and power.  The creek makes the hole somewhat unpredictable and if you could see the green you would love its multple tiers and slopes.



Here are two very good par 3's.  IMO.

17th at  Black Diamond Ranch Quarry.  225 yards tee shot (from the tees I play)...




12th at the Country Club of Columbus.  I love the unpreditable nature of the green.  Makes the hole a lot of fun.

[George Freeman]

Sean,

Great pics!  What course is this?  Where is it?

Thanks!

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Great pics!  What course is this?  Where is it?

Thanks!

George

What?  Of course this is the site of this year's Buda Cup.  You are welcome to join us.

Garland - you are most welcome.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have been reading architectural improvement suggestions for my club. They often support an idea by saying it makes the course more fair. This of course is a misuse of the word fair, because everyone plays the same source, so it is fair to everyone as they all face the same things. What they mean to say is that the suggested idea makes the course more predictable.

I would like to demonstrate that unpredictable is better than predictable. Please post your own pictures (with the implied consent that I can use them in this demonstration at my club) that you feel demonstrate unpredictable is better than predictable. Hopefully demonstrating unpredictable at some of the great courses will help sway some minds. Also, please explain your posting as I may not understand just from the pictures.

The best course I have ever played would have some great examples, but when I took my new camera there when I played it, I confused S (shutter priority mode) with SC (scenery mode) and ended up will all overexposed photos.

Thanks to anyone who would help me in this.

Garland

PS I chose the lamp icon as I am trying to shed some light here.

Garland - I would say 99% want fair and predictable. The minor GCA opinion rides again, this pops up time and time again.

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