[Jud_T]

One of 'em better not be Arcadia     Of those I've played, only Lost Dunes would even be in the discussion....

[Jon Heise]

Jon Heise, you...are a madman!

I loved reading that post Jon, and I value your opinion so please do me a favor and mark this down:

                            ......I.......want.........to.........play.........Greywalls..........with...........you...........this...........summer.........

LET'S DO IT.  My goal is at least two trips up there in '10, I'm sure we can make it happen...  Bad news is that it's 6 months till that sucker thaws out!

[JC Jones]

Jon Heise, you...are a madman!

I loved reading that post Jon, and I value your opinion so please do me a favor and mark this down:

                            ......I.......want.........to.........play.........Greywalls..........with...........you...........this...........summer.........

LET'S DO IT.  My goal is at least two trips up there in '10, I'm sure we can make it happen...  Bad news is that it's 6 months till that sucker thaws out!

Make sure you stop in Charlevoix to pick me up on the way

[Eric Smith]

Jimmy Bob Thornton's stretch Escalade will be by at 6am sharp

[Chuck Brown]

Chuck:

Quick question since I am quite familiar with the top tier MI courses - but can you tell me what MI courses you see ahead of Kingsley?

I will concede for the sake of argument and reason -- Crystal Downs and OH/S.

After that ?

You say a "half a dozen" others are no less great -- under that assumption you would then place those "other" courses equally in an overall top 50 USA listing.

Besides the ones I mentioned -- CD and OH/S -- I don't see any other MI course sniffing the top 50 save for the likes of an inclusion of Kingsley.

Sure, Matt!
Besides CD and OHCC, my Michigan favorites would include Franklin Hills (practically in the same category as CD and OHCC -- I am prejudiced; I live about five minutes from FHCC), Indianwood Old, and yes I'd personally rank Arcadia Bluffs above Kingsley in the "fun and scenic" category.  (I remember once writing on this Board my thought that comparing Arcadia Bluffs and Kingsley was almost unfair, based on the surreally beautiful chunk of lakeside real estate that the Arcadia architects had to work with.  I meant that as no insult to Kingsley, which I shall always acknowledge as a truly great design and being in the top handful of courses in the state.)  I'd place Lost Dunes and Forest Dunes very near to Kingsley.  And there are a host of old mature courses around Detroit that provide at least the same quality of golf, if not the neo-classic architectural curiosity, as at Kingsley; Country Club of Detroit, DGC-North and South, Grosse Isle, Barton Hills (all Donald Ross*, all having hosted USGA national championships), not to mention the Mackenzie-Maxwell University of Michigan.

I'd place Kingsley at the top of the triumverate of The Gailes-Forest Dunes-Kingsley.  But all three provide comparable experiences in my opinion.

Honestly, the more I think about it, I don't much enjoy the nitty-gritty of ranking other designs above Kingsley;  I get no kick at all from devaluing Kingsley.  I admire everything about Kingsley.  I just don't see it as a Michigan competitor to Shinnecock, or the National, or Piping Rock, or Pinehurst 2, or Chicago or Riviera or SFGC or Pasatiempo or Sand Hills or Seminole.  Not that league.  If Kingsley is in the Top 50 of American golf courses, there would be a very large number of Michigan courses very close to the Top 50.

One thing we can all agree on; if you have the chance to play the Kingsley Club, do it.  It is a fabulously interesting design, with a membership that has a rare love of the game.

[*Edit. -- CCD is of course a Colt-Allison-Trent Jones-redesign, not Ross.  Sorry]

[George Freeman]

George:

The real issue for me is how out to lunch the renowned Digest has been on Kingsley Club.

Look at the MI state ratings -- as well as the national top 100 -- and it makes me laugh out loud on how completely clueless they have been on Kingsley.

Good point Matt, here is GD's Michigan list:


1. Crystal Downs
2. Oakland Hills - South
3. Arcadia Bluffs
4. Tullymore
5. Indianwood - Old
6. Forest Dunes
7. Lost Dunes
8. True North
9. Point O’Woods
10. Black Lake
11. Franklin Hills
12. R&S Sharf Golf Course
13. Kingsley Club

I know we've had this conversation before, but it doesn't make it any less unbelievable...Kingsley's rank above is so absurd it isn't really even worth debating...

Greywalls at #23 is also ridiculous...

I'm much more interested in the "Are there 50 better courses than the Kingsley Club in the US?" question.

Then again, right now, I think there are perhaps five courses on that list that I'd personally place above Kingsley.

Chuck,

I too am curious what five courses on the list you would place above Kingsley.

The only five on the list that I can even find an argument for are:

Crystal Downs
Oakland Hills - South
Franklin Hills
Lost Dunes
Indianwood - Old

I haven't played OHCC, but I would put Kingsley ahead of the three below it...although they are all really good courses in their own right.

- George

[Jud_T]

U of M? Chuck, please get me a prescription for whatever you are on!  And I'm an alum!

[Matt_Ward]

Chuck:

With all due respect -- Arcadia is more show / visual stimuli than architectural details. A top 100 candidate -- possible. Top 50 in the USA -- not from the ones I have played. If Kingsley and Arcadia go head-to-head it's Kingsley comfortably in the 7-3 range for me. Too many people give courses fronting H20 a big time bounce up for reasons that truly escape me.

Chuck, you may not enjoy the "nitty gritty" but when you say half a dozen courses are beyond Kingsley in MI -- that's stretching things too far for me to comprehend -- let alone agree with. You say you would place Lost Dunes and Forest Dunes "very near" -- but "very near" is not the same as ahead. I don't doubt the qualities of the inner Detroit area courses you mentioned - but they are not in the same league with Kingsley.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Franklin Hills and Indianwood Old -- but that means only four courses are ahead of Kingsley.

Chuck, you say there are a "large number of MI courses very close to the top 50 in the USA -- I don't know how deep your overal porfolio of couses played throughout the USA is but with the exception of CD and OH/S - I see only Kingsley as a top 50 layout. The rest of the MI courses you mentioned are all good courses -- some evenbetter than that but none of themwould sjiff a top 50 position. Not beause they are not good but that the ones I have played throughout America are far stronger and more compelling from an architectural perpective.

[Mike Hendren]

JC,

I think Kingsley's ranking on the Golfweek modern list at 20th is in the ballpark.  I've eaten a little crow here for my penchant for classic golf courses and given Kingsley credit for my re-thinking.  Reverting back to form, however, an argument can be made that Golfweek's Top 100 Classic list is as good as if not "better" (a distasteful word in this context) than Kingsley.  For example, I've played Beverly and Augusta CC (ranked between 90 and 100 on the classic list) and would be hard pressed to say that Kingsley is superior. 

Kingsley is very good.

Mike

[Tim Bert]

Tim, Sand Hills not clearly better than Kingsley?  That statement alone deserves it's own thread.  Don't know how many you'll get to agree with you, but it's surely a discussion point.

I started a thread about SH vs KC a few years back after a trip to Michigan. I agree with Tim, KC is in the discussion. While I like SH better, KC does not take a back seat to anyone. I do not think there are 50 better courses in the country. I will name one though, Rock Creek Cattle.

You know what they say... Mike Schmidt fans think alike.

I am right there with you (minus the RCCC comment because I haven't played it.) I struggle more with how the top notch courses (Sand hills,etc) differentitate themselves from Kingsley than how Kingsley separate from the mid-tier courses.  I am hard-pressed to name a course that has two sustained stretches of holes that I consider as highly as 1-8 and 12-16 at Kingsley.

CPC
Pacific Dunes
Sand Hills
Ballyneal

That is it for me.  It was an elite, special feel course for me. 

I'd like to hear specifics of what the course lacks from those that don't put it up there.  It would be educational for me to learn from the experts on this matter.   

[Jud_T]

Tim,

What's wrong with #9?   

[George Freeman]

Tim,

What's wrong with #9?  

Tim,

On a serious note, why not 17 or 18?

[Tim Bert]

Anyone that has read my thoughts on the course in the photo tour thread knows that I'm tickled to death with the course as it is.  I can accept #9 for what it is and I don't have built up spite for it as some others do, but it just isn't on the same level as the rest of the front nine run for me.

17 is fine but it's just fine and not spectacular. I think the 5holes building up to it are individually amongst the best on the course (even though I prefer the sum of the parts on the front) and 17 just doesn't live up to that for me.  For me it is unique in that I've ever seen a hole combine that severe of an elevation shift with that much width but it felt over the top wide.  I know Mike said that #1 is wider but it didn't feel that way to me (perhaps the trees on the left on #1?) I think I probably like it better than I would have if I had playedthe narrow version. Maybe something part way in between.  I am sure someone could pull up some comments were I gushed about #17 in the other thread but I have had more time to reflect on the course and my perception of it's greatness since that time. 

I really like #18 to close out the course. The only reason I didn't include it is because #17 disrupts the special run for me so #18 isn't consecutive to the other holes I mentioned.

[Sean_A]

Here is what Michiganders and Friends came up with some months ago as the top.  What I found most remarkable was the diversity of designs and the well represented eras of design.  I was very surprised U of M made this list, but I do also believe that it is a far better course than generally given credit for. 

Arcadia Bluffs Golf Club  Arcadia  W Henderson/R Smith  1999 
Crystal Downs Country Club  Frankfort  A MacKenzie & PD Maxwell 1929 
Dunes Club  New Buffalo  D Nugent 1990 
Forest Dunes Golf Club  Roscommon  T Weiskopf  2002
Indianwood Golf & Country Club Old Course  Lake Orion  W Reid 1926
Lost Dunes Golf Club  Bridgman  T Doak 1999
Marquette Golf Club Greywalls  Marquette  M Devries 2005
Oakland Hills Country Club South Course  Bloomfield Hills  DJ Ross 1918/RT Jones 1951
The Kingsley Club  Kingsley  M Devries 2000
University of Michigan Golf Course  Ann Arbor  PD Maxwell & A Mackenzie 1931 

Five more which received a significant number of votes. 

Belvedere Golf Club  Charlievoix  W Watson 1927 
Franklin Hills  Country Club  Franklin  DJ Ross  1928 
Lakewood Shores Gailes Course Oscoda  K Aldridge 1992
Point O’ Woods Golf & Country Club  Benton Harbor  RT Jones 1957 
Wilderness Valley Black Forest Course  Gaylord  T Doak 1992
 
A handful of others had a few votes, but not quite enough to ripple the pond.   

The Mines
Barton Hills
Pilgrims Run
CC of Detroit
Grosse Ile
Boyne Highlands Heather

Taken in total, this list looks quite good to me.  There are perhaps a few obvious omissions so far as I am concerned, but that is life.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I agree that U of M is a fun and somewhat historic track, just not on the same level as Kingsley.  I will be VERY interested to hear your take on Kingsley.  I assume by your Next footer that you haven't gotten there yet?

[Andy Troeger]

I have Crystal Downs as my favorite in Michigan and Kingsley Club as a pretty strong #2. I would think Kingsley makes a very strong case for the top 50 in the USA. Lost Dunes, Tullymore, and Point O'Woods round out my Michigan top five, but I haven't played all the candidates especially around the Detroit area.
 
It would certainly seem that the intent of Kingsley was to push the envelope especially at certain points. That's part of what makes the course great, but also what holds Kingsley back in some of the ranking lists when some people don't like those features.

[Jeff Goldman]

There was a thread a few years back about the relative merits of Kingsley and Arcadia Bluffs and the top 50 which got somewhat heated and quite interesting given the participants.  Maybe someone smarter than I can pull up the thread, or at least some choice bits from it.

[JC Jones]

JC,

I think Kingsley's ranking on the Golfweek modern list at 20th is in the ballpark.  I've eaten a little crow here for my penchant for classic golf courses and given Kingsley credit for my re-thinking.  Reverting back to form, however, an argument can be made that Golfweek's Top 100 Classic list is as good as if not "better" (a distasteful word in this context) than Kingsley.  For example, I've played Beverly and Augusta CC (ranked between 90 and 100 on the classic list) and would be hard pressed to say that Kingsley is superior. 

Kingsley is very good.

Mike

As the kids say, Bogey, you trippin.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Can you tell me specifically what Kingsley does that  "push the envelope especially at certain points."

When you say it's what holds the course back - might it just be that the raters themselves are the ones who are clueless on what really elevates a couse to super stardom?

Kingsley has elements that clearly demonstrate a 21st century version of classic golf with a moden flourish.

On the flip side -- how Grewalls misses not being selected much higher on any public course listing is also no less puzzling.

From all the courses I have ever played in the States -- Kingsley would easily snare a top 50 spot. It is that good and frankly can make a good case argument with the likes of a Crystal Downs.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Can you tell me specifically what Kingsley does that  "push the envelope especially at certain points."

When you say it's what holds the course back - might it just be that the raters themselves are the ones who are clueless on what really elevates a couse to super stardom?

Matt,
But of course! Anyone who disagrees with you must be clueless! That explains a lot 

The greens are Kingsley are controversial, even if it doesn't become apparent with this particular group. Not everyone is going to like the 9th hole, or the 2nd hole when the pin is in the front, or even a fair number of other greens that shrug off balls. As I said in the first post, the things that so many here love about the course can be the same features that others don't care for. Courses that are as bold as Kingsley or Black Mesa are bound both to create ardent supporters and those that would prefer something a bit more subdued. I think both deserve to be in the USA Top 50, but am not holding my breath on either cracking the Golf Digest list at all anytime soon.  And yes, that has something to do with the makeup of the panel, but I still maintain that those that disagree with my viewpoints still have a right to their opinions, especially if they can defend them.

[George Freeman]

Good, and somewhat against the grain post from Anthony from the thread Jeff was referring to.  He has AB 7-3 over Kingsley:

Please consider that I think that Mike Devries is the BEST up and coming architects in America and after several rounds of golf and dinner, have been fortunate enough to here his stories and also design thoughts. From meeting him at Pilgrims Run with Kris Shuemaker and walking Diamond Springs several times during construction, Kingsley Club is a course that has Mike DeVries coming out of it's seems-He was really allowed to use his imagination and express most everything that he wanted on a very good northern Michigan site. Kingsley Club is one of the best courses in America that is really yet to be discovered-and maybe that's why they are also allowing some  outside play, to help get their name out there-I don't know. If there is one drawback to Mike's courses, it that the greens can be very severe! Without a doubt fun, but severe enough that the ground game can be taken out because an aerial approach is needed to get to some of the pin locations. Dan Lucas is also a great superintendent that gets the most out of Kingsley. Kingsley Club has everything that this sigh is supposed to be like, what alot of people on this site view as good golf.
  As for Arcadia Bluffs-I just had the fortune of playing here about 2 weeks ago and was COMPLETELY blown away-The turf conditions were an par with ANY high end, Top 100 private course and each hole had something neat that the other 17 didn't have. AB plays different everyday because of the stiff breeze that blows over Lake Michigan-The views are tremendous! The sheer size of AB is amazing-HUGE greens, HUGE fairways, HUGE bunkers and everything has a subtle flow to it. The deep pot bunkers to the amazing size of many greens-seriously- roller coasters! AB has greens perched up on hills and bluffs, (#3, #8 #12, #13, #18) down in valleys (#2, #4, #9, #10, #11, #14) There just seems to be more to think about off the tee and on the approach shots at AB. I've always been a fan of fair golf-I'm not in love with quirky golf courses-Arcadia is a much more fair course than Kingsley, though the clientle is different also.  I think that the better, scratch player would enjoy AB on a day to day basis more than Kingsley because of the wind playing more of a factor, speed of their greens, areas of the course where you just can't miss it on and also it's outstanding variety. AB is will deserving of both it's ranking from Golfweek and Golf Digest.
  Interesting point, neither Mike DeVries nor Warren Henderson have been given the chance to design another large scale course that could receive national attention, which is a shame. They both do very good work. If I had to play 10 rounds, AB wins 7-3.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Buck Wolter]

Arcadia Bluffs reminds me of Disneyworld -- you can have a great time there but you wouldn't want to go every week.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

If you thought I was referring to you then you need a thicker skin -- the sad reality is that raters on the whole from Digest and Golf Mag clearly are alseep at the switch regarding Kingsley.

How are the greens at Kingsley even more controversial than what you see with Oakland Hills South or even Crystal Downs itself ?

Frankly, the omission from the Digest ratings at the national level and it's current position in all of MI speaks of the ignorance of the very people who should frankly know better.

The same can be said for Golf Mag as well.

Andy -- admit it -- Digest fumbled this one badly -- even though you see the course for what it is and have said as much.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

If you thought I was referring to you then you need a thicker skin -- the sad reality is that raters on the whole from Digest and Golf Mag clearly are alseep at the switch regarding Kingsley.

How are the greens at Kingsley even more controversial than what you see with Oakland Hills South or even Crystal Downs itself ?

Frankly, the omission from the Digest ratings at the national level and it's current position in all of MI speaks of the ignorance of the very people who should frankly know better.

The same can be said for Golf Mag as well.

Andy -- admit it -- Digest fumbled this one badly -- even though you see the course for what it is and have said as much.

Matt,
You didn't get my "joke"--oh well. I've said many times I don't agree with the GD rating of Kingsley, or Black Mesa, or Ballyneal. There's a difference between that and saying the people who disagree with me are clueless or ignorant.

Otherwise--I agree with you about Kingsley and hope it someday makes the 100 Greatest.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

They are clueless on the matter, in my mind.

For people who profess to know really outstanding designed golf -- the omissin of the places you listed says that plainly and completely in my book. YOU are free to disagree as you please.

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