[JC Jones]

We used to do these threads all the time so I thought I'd start one up as I'm currently having this debate in my mind.  For reference purposes, The Confidential Guide gives Crystal Downs a 10 and Seminole a 9.  This first post will list the holes and yardages of each courses.  Debate about hole vs hole to begin in the second post.

               Seminole                                                Crystal Downs

1)          375 Yards - Par 4                                    460 Yards - Par 4
2)          387 Yards - Par 4                                    425 Yards - Par 4
3)          504 Yards - Par 5                                    191 Yards - Par 3
4)          450 Yards - Par 4                                    409 Yards - Par 4
5)          207 Yards - Par 3                                    353 Yards - Par 4
6)          388 Yards - Par 4                                    384 Yards - Par 4
7)          432 Yards - Par 4                                    335 Yards - Par 4
8 )         235 Yards - Par 3                                    550 Yards - Par 5
9)          500 Yards - Par 5                                    175 Yards - Par 3
10)        390 Yards - Par 4                                    395 Yards - Par 4
11)        420 Yards - Par 4                                    196 Yards - Par 3
12)        367 Yards - Par 4                                    430 Yards - Par 4
13)        170 Yards - Par 3                                    442 Yards - Par 4
14)        512 Yards - Par 5                                    147 Yards - Par 3
15)        497 Yards - Par 5                                    327 Yards - Par 4
16)        410 Yards - Par 4                                    588 Yards - Par 5
17)        175 Yards - Par 3                                    311 Yards - Par 4
18)        417 Yards - Par 4                                    400 Yards - Par 4

[Jud_T]

There's only a handful of guys on here who've actually played both courses and even less who've played them both more then once....

[TEPaul]

Jud and JC:

Good point there, Jud. I've played both courses a ton of times over the years. But whether I had or hadn't I must say I've never liked comparing golf courses in a hole by hole context. I guess I have a whole lot of reasons for saying that, and I will try to get into what some of them are some other time. To me it's not much different than some ideal golf course on paper made up of great holes from various courses---I've just never felt something like that is realistic enough to be considered seriously.

[JC Jones]

Hole 1

Each hole starts out with, in my opinion, a relatively benign tee shot.  Crystal Downs is elevated and provides a wonderful view of the entire front 9 and Crystal Lake in the distance.  If you are as in love with northern Michigan as I am, there is absolutely no better view in golf. 

Seminole's first tee is set just steps from the clubhouse, the 9th green, the halfway shack and the 10th tee.  You really feel as though you are in a gathering spot before heading out on your trek across the dunes.  The ambiance and presence of history is wonderful. 

As far as the golf is concerned, your tee shot at Crystal Downs goes down into a really wide and mostly flat fairway.  The adventure of this hole begins with your approach to the green.  With your approach, you have a very long iron or hybrid (both times for me into the wind) to a crazy green sloping back to front  and right to left off of a ridge that runs through the entire front 9.  There are bunker set into that ridge along the right side of the green.  A miss to the left puts you in short grass with a dangerous pitch up to the green.  A good opening to the greatest front 9 in golf but less interesting that the rest of the 9.

The first hole at Seminole is a dog leg to the right, with bunkers guarding the right edge of the dog leg.  The goal is to chew off as much of the dog leg as possible to give yourself the shortest yardage to the green.  Like Crystal Downs, the fairway is pretty flat with the goal off the tee to be as far as possible and as straight as possible.  The approach to the green plays much differently depending on the wind.  There are bunkers short and right protecting a classic built up green generally sloping back to front and right to left.  Into the wind this hole is a bear, down wind the goal would be to put yourself in a position to attack the green.

I give the advantage to Crystal Downs.

[Philippe Binette]

judging from the scorecards:

crystal downs great asset is the variety of lenght of the par-4 probably making it more 'sporty' than Seminole
but that said, Seminole is probably a relentless test of golf for the best players and the wind might fool the numbers too

[JC Jones]

Jud,

Very few people have played NGLA, I guess we should get rid of the "what is your favorite hole at NGLA" thread.  Furthermore, there are plenty of courses on here very few have played.  And this certainly wasn't a concern when doing the Shinnecock v Pine Valley thread... 

Tom,

We can agree to disagree.

[Jud_T]

Arguably Pine Valley and NGLA are easier to access than Seminole...Not trying to poo-poo the exercise, just stating a fact...

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,

I think you'll have to recuse yourself from the voting, you've already detemined that CD has "...the greatest front 9 in golf"?   

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
We can agree to disagree."


JC:

Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that others shouldn't compare those two courses hole by hole or any courses hole by hole. I realize a lot of people love doing that, and probably the one who likes to do it as much as any is our Moderator, Ran Morrissett. I've just never liked to and I'll explain why some other time.

[TEPaul]

J.C.

Seminole's 1st hole really is fairly benign. In a design vacuum would it be better if it was longer? Perhaps it would be and as you can see Ross could've gotten some more out of it at the green-end but had he done that he would've complicated the walk back to the second hole and the routing. This is a very good example of the "jig-saw" aspect of basic course routing----how individual pieces need to not only be good but they do need to "fit together" too.

[Tim Bert]

I have not played Seminole and have only played Crystal Downs here so I am not qualified to opine here.

As one who uses the 1-18 comparison for convenience when in a car on a long golfing trip, I find that if you have the time to do it "right" a better exercise is to make the comparisons between long 4s, short 4s, long 5s, short 5s, etc as opposed to doing it numerically. Then you can consider the front nine as a whole and the back nine as a whole. Not trying ti change the thread, just wondering if anyone else ever thinks about comparisons this way.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
That would be 'stroke play'.

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  For what it's worth, I had the two courses pretty even by this method.

I gave Crystal Downs the nod on holes 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 13 and 14.

Gave Seminole the nod on 2, 3, 4, 10, 16, 17 and 18.

I rated 6, 11, 12 and 15 even.  I'm sure that many observers would disagree about the individual matchups, because often you're comparing a par-3 to a par-5, and some people have more stomach for quirk (i.e. 17 at Crystal Downs) than others.  But I'll stand by my even rating.  Nevertheless, I've got Crystal Downs as a 10 and Seminole as a 9 on the Doak scale, and I'm not wavering there; a course is more than the sum of its holes.

[JC Jones]

Hole 2

The second hole at Crystal Downs tees off from the same ridge as the green of #1 is built into.  It runs parallel to #1 and somehow, though it does not appear to, is completely up hill.  Again a relatively simple tee shot to a wide fairway, though there is a large bunker between #1 and #2 that is, in my opinion, more in play on #2 than #1.  The approach is up hill and you better be below the hole because the green on #2 is as back to front sloping as any green I've played.  The weird thing is that it doesn't look like it at all; yet, if the green speeds are up, you can drop a ball at the back of the 2nd green and it will run all the way to the front.  That being said, I think the green of #1 is more complex than #2 as the danger of #2 is simply the severity of its pitch.  Another good hold.

The tee shot on the second hole at Seminole is as benign as the first but that is where it ends.  This hole gets pretty phenomenal from the approach on in.  The approach is uphill to a green that is built into the sand dune on the north/west part of the property.  The green is built into the sand dune and quite severe.  It is somewhat jellybean shaped with X off to the right.  In my opinion, your approach needs to be below the hole and on the front 1/2 of the green, otherwise you are just flirting with too much danger.  This is where the ride of Seminole really starts to ramp up.

Advantage: Seminole

[JC Jones]

J.C.

Seminole's 1st hole really is fairly benign. In a design vacuum would it be better if it was longer? Perhaps it would be and as you can see Ross could've gotten some more out of it at the green-end but had he done that he would've complicated the walk back to the second hole and the routing. This is a very good example of the "jig-saw" aspect of basic course routing----how individual pieces need to not only be good but they do need to "fit together" too.

I agree that hole 1 fits well into the routing as a whole and that's why I'm not sure I'd lengthen it.  The only thing I'd change is to give the green a bit more of a defense.

[JC Jones]

JC:  For what it's worth, I had the two courses pretty even by this method.

I gave Crystal Downs the nod on holes 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 13 and 14.

Gave Seminole the nod on 2, 3, 4, 10, 16, 17 and 18.

I rated 6, 11, 12 and 15 even.  I'm sure that many observers would disagree about the individual matchups, because often you're comparing a par-3 to a par-5, and some people have more stomach for quirk (i.e. 17 at Crystal Downs) than others.  But I'll stand by my even rating.  Nevertheless, I've got Crystal Downs as a 10 and Seminole as a 9 on the Doak scale, and I'm not wavering there; a course is more than the sum of its holes.

Tom,

I tend to agree with you on your ratings of the holes although mine are slightly different and I agree that a course is a lot more than the sum of its parts.

[Tim Bert]

Tim,
That would be 'stroke play'.

not when you still do 1 up, etc. It's just matching up holes that are potentially more comparable.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
That would be 'stroke play'.

not when you still do 1 up, etc. It's just matching up holes that are potentially more comparable.

I knew I should have added the smiley face to my post 

[JC Jones]

Hole 3

Par 3 vs Par 5.  The third hole at CD is a very hard par 3 and one of my favorites.  I seem to be in between clubs and that is not good as missing this green is almost assured to be a bogey.  The green slopes from the back right to the front left with bunkers protecting all around.  I made an up and down from the back bunker to a back pin on my first round there and the member said he'd never seen that before.

Similarly, the 3rd hole at Seminole I made an up and down from the back bunker to a back pin with a green that slopes severely right to left and back to front.  The third hole at Seminole is a dog leg right par 5 where it is reasonable reachable but not worth it as a miss left is absolute death.  I love the way Ross plays you off the dune and then around and back up the dune all on the same hole.  Tremendous hole.

Advantage Seminole

Hole 4

I like the 4th at CD even though many consider it an afterthought as it precedes one of the greatest stretches of holes in golf.  Dogleg right, seemingly always into the wind with a small, shelfed in green.  A good hole that rewards a drive that challenges the right side with a short iron into a green that I've yet to hit in two.

The 4th is often considered one of the best at Seminole and some say its the hardest par 4 in Florida.  The hole plays 450 yards along the top of the ridge.  Waste bunkers along the left, falling off the dune to the right.  On top of that it plays up hill to one of the bigger greens on the course which slopes back to front.  The view of the ocean nontwithstanding, this whole is a bear.

Advantage Seminole

[TEPaul]

JC:

I've always felt the 4th at Seminole is a great example of a fairly rare offering from Donald Ross in that it is a true "ridge-running" hole. Some of us feel that perhaps more than any other architect Donald Ross had a tendency to go high-low-high with as many holes as he possibly could on any site with decent topography and then just figure out some good and interesting ways to connect the rest). By the way, the 4th is a true "ridge running" hole even though it does have a pretty cool little natural dip and rise about 3/4 of the way along it.

The only hole like it from Ross that comes to my mind at the moment is the 13th at Gulf Stream (about 25 miles to the south). Gulf Stream's 13th is not quite so long as Seminole's 4th but it does play in a north to south direction and for that reason it pretty much plays into a left to right quartering prevailing wind and a bit longer than its yardage while Seminole's 4th generally plays with a right to left quartering down wind.

It is also interesting to me that both holes have a par 3 on one side of their ridges and a par 5 on the other side as well as a high par 4 green site behind their greens.

[Adam_Messix]

I don't think anyone would call the 1st Hole at Seminole benign with a cold, northwest wind blowing.  The word I would use to describe the hole in that wind is "killer." 

[JC Jones]

Due to lack of interest, I'll jump straight to summary time:

Crystal Downs wins on: 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14 and 17
Seminole wins on: 2, 3, 4, 11, 12, 15, 16, and 18

Tie on 6

I agree with Tom that a course is more than the sum of its parts but that is not necessary here as I think Crystal Downs wins on the head to head.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Due to lack of interest, I'll jump straight to summary time:

Crystal Downs wins on: 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14 and 17
Seminole wins on: 2, 3, 4, 11, 12, 15, 16, and 18

Tie on 6

I agree with Tom that a course is more than the sum of its parts but that is not necessary here as I think Crystal Downs wins on the head to head.

The only shocker here for me, having only played Seminole, is 14 which I think might have been my favorite at Seminole.

So tell me about 14 at Crystal Downs Jason, I'd like to hear why that was better.

[JC Jones]

PH,

The green on 14 at Seminole, I agree, is phenomenal with its severe back to front slope, built into the big dune on the NW side of the property, with bunkers guarding the front and back.  However, to me, the rest of the hole was missing something.

Since 14 at CD is a par 3, and I think 14 at Seminole really gets good with the approach shot, it is more of an apples to apples comparison than one would think.  The tee shot on this short hole, you would think, would give you confidence.  However, there is a nasty bunker right smack dab in the center of the hole guarding the front of the green, as well as a bunker on the left guarding the back left part of the green.  In addition, when standing on the tee, the angle makes you think that beyond the green is the edge of the world so the otherwise tiny green (smallest on the course I believe and smaller than 4000sq ft) becomes, if you can believe it, even smaller.  Moreover, once you get to the green, like other greens at CD, it plays like an illusion.  If you are on the front, putting to the back, you know the entire hole is uphill, the green slopes back to front and yet the putt plays, essentially, flat.  This past summer I was on the front with a back left pin and hit my first putt off the back of the green because I was playing for the green to play uphill.  One of my top 4 par 3's in northern MI.

[Marty Bonnar]

JC
the reasons that we 'used to do these threads all the time' is that people felt they were a complete waste of time.
The Internet tends to have a pretty short attention span.
This is essentially a ratings thread which always have fairly short lifespans on GCA.
Better to discuss the RELATIVE merits of each course that to imply a completely tenuous relationship hole by hole, I fear, young fella...
Good try though!
cheers,
FBD.

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