[Bill_McBride]

"They both know Downing Gray too, he was Walker Cup captain in 1995-97 and was low amateur at the Masters several times in the 60s."


Downing had quite the golf career and he's one helluva good public joke-teller and raconteur too. Here's a good one ABOUT Downing----he played a round with Hogan in some US Open (don't know whether it was in practice or during the tournament) but as Hogan entered the lockerroom with one of the pros they played with he was overheard to say: "That amateur we just played with might be the best putter I've ever seen."

If he could have putted that well on the last nine of his 36 hole final at Pinehurst in 1959 against Labron Harris Jr, he would have been a U.S. Amateur champ.   Harris came from way back to win as DG missed putt after putt on the final nine.

[Gary Slatter]

JC, I'm glad you enjoyed your round, and hell getting to play that thing is kind of a big deal.

but..... every "good" golf course I have ever seen is still miles ahead of Seminole. I haven't quite traveled like some on here, but I have gotten to see some damn fine golf courses in the last 3 or 4 years and Seminole, is just  plain boring.

And I've read what you have about how great the routing is, and how it takes such advantage of the 1 dune ridge but come on, this golf course can be duplicated pretty much anywhere with 1 big dirt move on a dead flat site (which begs the question, why hasn't it). I must have had the blinders on but I got a peak of the ocean once then a glimpse near the end, and then I had to stand on my tip toes to really see the ocean up close.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the hype, which is driven by the clubs desire to be "exclusive". And I really think the no picture taking policy is in effect because the course really doesn't look that great.... at all.


I still think its a great course but I wouldn't want to play it every day, and I certainly don't think it belongs in the top 25.


*Runs for cover!

Ryan, very sorry that you feel this way towards the boring Seminole!  I guess the Old Course is also boring?    All the best in your design business 

[Adam_Messix]

Gentlemen--

I played Seminole this past Thursday and the place continues to show me more and more architectural nuances. 

A couple of observations.....

Unless you've played the course, you cannot accurately comment on the features of the place.  I know in many cases you can get a good idea about the course by just walking it....but Seminole is not one of them.  You need to pay attention to way everything seems to be offset from a particular angle and how hitting the ball on the wrong side of the fairway (let alone missing the fairway) can lead to a much more difficult approach.  As an example, the 2nd hole is probably a half shot easier from the left side of the fairway over the right side given how an approach from the right plays across the green making it really narrow. 

The other thing at Seminole is the wind.  I've seem it blow there at many different velocities from just about every direction.  On Thursday I played ten with a fairway wood and a sand wedge approach, the previous visit was a nailed drive and a four wood and there have been times where the southwest wind had you playing out over the water to get to a left hole location. 

Then you have the routing, which uses the dunes brilliantly giving the course movement very atypical of Florida.  It's a shame that with the lack of land and the environmental laws that there will never be another Seminole. 

[TEPaul]

"If he could have putted that well on the last nine of his 36 hole final at Pinehurst in 1959 against Labron Harris Jr, he would have been a U.S. Amateur champ.   Harris came from way back to win as DG missed putt after putt on the final nine."

Good point. I guess the moral of that story is if one plays at that level long enough they will definitely have their good days and their bad days.

A case in point would be Downing's good friend and contemporary Harcourt Kemp, another high caliber amateur player fairly close to Downing's career quality. Most of the times I played with Harcourt I felt he was perhaps the best or the most effective putter I'd ever seen culminating in the last round at Fisher's Island's mid-am tournament when it seemed to me he sunk about 350 feet of putts. But then later he remarkably did something like 5-6 putt the 18th green at Seminole to actually lose the Coleman Senior Divsion by a stroke or two.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

My long post with the hole-by-hole review and match is still coming... Since I know you are all waiting for it.

I'll try and get the front nine up while I work on the back nine too.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

In sum, Seminole is fun, strategic, sporty, intoxicating, stimulating, perplexing, invigorating, frustrating, amazing and fantastic. 

I never thought I could sum up my experience at Seminole in any concise way but I think Jason just did. Amazing.

After promising to let the winner post a summary first, I've been impatiently waiting for Jason to make the first post. I've felt like a dam waiting to let go of all my pent up thoughts. (It then took me a while to get this post up. Guess I waited too long.)

Oh boy where to begin? I'll just try to retrace it from the beginning. Coming into the round the three best courses I had ever played were Interlachen, Pasatiempo, and Calusa Pines. Growing up caddying at Interlachen I was excited to see what most consider Ross' best. I also was interested to compare it to Calusa as I had caddied for a number of people who were unimpressed by Seminole and said that Calusa was clearly better. 

Because there aren't a ton of pictures of the place and the reviews are all over the board I wasn't sure what to expect. My expectations were high however after reading some more of the Seminole threads here on GCA.

You pull down a long private street from the main road with houses on the right and the course on the left blocked by hedges. When you finally get to the end you pull into the circle with the Seminole head and the caddies take your clubs and they valet your car. You then sign in with a very nice older lady at the front desk and she directs you to the locker room.

The locker room is everything anyone's ever hyped it up to be. Jason and I probably could have spent a week in it and dorked out taking everything in. I'm not sure what was the coolest part was. Seeing some of the famous guest names who had won tournaments (for ex: Dan Quayle, Sean Connery, Pat Mucci, etc.), or the setup of the lockers being set behind a bench to sit on in front of it and put your shoes on, or the aerial photo of the course showing a shot by shot diagram of Claude Harmon's low round of 30-30 60 with each club he used, or the table full of classic golf course and teaching books (just about everything besides a copy of the Confidential Guide). Not to mention an ash tray next to every couch and chair in the middle of the room.

After leaving the locker room and passing the pool you walk down the stairs to the putting green and the tent where the caddymaster and caddies are with all the bags. You get your first glimpse of the course here with #9 green, #1 and #2 going up the hill behind it, #10 and #11 going up the behind it, and the driving range. Seeing the elevation change from there really got me excited. I was surprised how open it was.

U-turning back into the clubhouse (now lower) you walk into what has to be the coolest inch-for-inch pro shop in the country. I'd say it was maybe 10 feet by 25 feet. They packed every crevice with so much cool stuff it's hard to even explain. In the bathroom in the back of the shop is where they had a couple of sets for clubs for sale hanging on the wall just to give you idea of how small it is.

After heading out we met our two caddies, Jason and I's who had been on the senior tour for 10 years with Ed Dockerty, and another guy who had moved from South Africa 19 years ago and been at Seminole ever since.

Just as we finished hitting balls the rain started and we all huddled under either the tent or the half-way house which is right between the range and #1+#10 tee. Jason ate an entire jar of ginger snaps. After an hour of on and off dumping we decided to make a go for it. I was so distracted by both rain and trying to take everything about the course in.

Little did I realize until the 5th hole that I had just started with 4 straight pars. Of course I needed to as Jones brought his A+ game to our little match and I wasn't even up a hole after those 4 pars to start. This ended up being the way the entire match went as I played well on my way to an 83 with 1 biridie and I still lost 4 and 3.

Here is the hole by hole breakdown

#1 is kind of the classic Ross warm up into the round hole. It's a benign dog-leg right at 370 yards with bunkers on both the inside and outside of the turn that for me played driver-pitching wedge. Jason made 5 so I was up 1. It was pouring walking off the hole. I think some of the greatness of this hole is that it can sneak up on you while you see #2 climbing up the dune behind it and you want to get there. Almost like a sports team that looks ahead to the next big game and the team under .500 beats them as a result.

#2 gets you right into the meat of the golf course with a par-4 380 yard dog-leg left that turns to go right up the dune to an elevated green probably 50-70 feet or so high. The tee-shot is over a small pond to a fairway again with bunkers on both sides of the turn. I hit driver-7 iron (my 175-180 club) up into the wind and hit the green but rolled off the back into the rough. I hit a nice bump chip with my 7-iron to 2 feet only to have Jones drop in a down hill 10 footer for par and his 4 for 3. Back to even. At this point we could not have been any wetter had we jumped into the pond.

#3 is par-5 and what some consider to be a classic Ross, tee shot high into a valley then back up to a high green. The hole actually bends to the right pretty good as it works its way back up the dune to the two-tiered elevated green. It was raining so hard the group in front of us walked off. I hit driver-4-iron-gap wedge (all 3 into the wind) and hit the middle of the green but it spun back to the front leaving me with about a 75-foot putt up to the top tier the hole was cut on. I made a great two putt but not as good as Jason's miraculous up and down from the back bunker. Still even. Really cool green I thought and it was clear by my dad's struggles that short left was death.

#4 is the 440 yard par 4 #1 handicap hole that some say is the best/toughest hole in FL. When we got to the tee the rain stopped and the sun started to peak out as we all took our rain jackets off. I hit a great drive that faded with the help of the wind to the right side of the fairway 180 out. As I was sneaking my one picture other than the group one we took on 17 (will post it when I get it from my dad) Jones hit the shot of his life out of the left waste bunker. 220 out with a hybrid in his hand and the man puts it on the green in two out of nowhere. Unbelievable. I calmly hit my 7-iron onto the front of the green and two putted for my par. As for Jones, well apparently he had used up all his good shot juice because he hit the worst putt I've seen in quite some time and pushed it hard right (opened up the flange on the putt) about 10 feet right of the hole. I needed it thought just to halve the hole. Still even.

Walking off the #4th green you now have one of the prettiest views in FL. From here you can see almost every hole on the course and just over the opposite dune along the ocean so that you can just see the ocean peaking out above it. Very cool.

#5 is a 188 yard par-3 that you already heard about with the 6-iron that wasn't meant to be. Neither was mine as I chunked it short (did this on 3 of the par 3's actually) and then hit a nice flop shot that was about half a foot short and caught the lip of the huge bunker cut into the front of the green. After another decent effort out that landed short and rolled back to my feet I hit it out to 3 feet and my double bogey 5. This is when I finally looked at the scorecard and saw I had started with 4 straight pars. Down 1 after Jason made bogey.

#6 is a 373 yard par-4 that runs along the west side of the property. Jason knows this well as he tried to hit some cars on the other side of the hedges.  The caddie instructed us to hit the left-center of the fairway as the fairway cants left and the approach is to a green angled left to right with bunkers front right and back left. I put my best anti-right swing on my drive (after Jason pushed it right) and pulled it a hair left into the waste bunker. I missed my approach shot right into the front bunker and chipped out to 5-feet.  Jones made 6 after his lost ball but he had a stroke so I had to make my putt to win the hole. Alas I was a hair soft after the caddy told me to "just stroke it" and it just broke right of the hole on the last roll. Still down 1.

#7 is a 409 yard par-4 that has a downhill tee-shot off the dune down into the middle of the property. There is water that cuts across the fairway about 300 yards out. When the caddy told me it was 300 and the wind was right behind our back I asked if I should hit 4-wood instead. He said no hit the driver. So I did and crushed it into the water on the fly. Jason meanwhile blasted his dead right onto the 8th hole. Of course he had an open shot and was able to play it to the front of the green from which he got up and down for his 4 for 3. I chipped on and two putted for my 5. Down 2.

#8 is a 224 yard par 3 which the caddy said they call the shortest par-4 in the world. It was 209 to the pin but dead into the wind. My dad hit driver and was the only one on the green. I hit hybrid just short of the green. Jason meanwhile having not played the 7th fairway yet decided to push it right again and check it out. Of course I missed my par putt and he made his 5 for 4 for the halve. Still down 2.

#9 is a very underrated par-5 imo and is 485 yards long. About 300 yards from the tee the fairway narrows to about 10-15 yards wide with two bunkers to the right and a small pond and trees to the left. Further right as well is out of bounds. This tee-shot really messed with me as I really wanted to get it into the smaller neck for a chance to hit the green in two especially with the wind helping. Instead I missed it right and it ended up with a funky lie on the finger of the bunker. Off my slice lie I pulled it left onto another edge of the bunker left of the green about 70 yards out. Jason's drive left him with a shot to the green but over the trees that block the left side. As a result he pulled it left. I chunked my third while Jason chipped his on and two putted while I left my 4th shot short and just missed my par putt. Down 3 at the turn.

Back 9 to come...

[TEPaul]

"JC,

A good number of people, after playing one round, have posted how overrated they think Seminole is.

I suspect that they are amongst the unenlightened and need to play the course more often under differing conditions.

Didn't one poster recently indicate that he thought Seminole was boring, like most muni's he's played ?

Do you think he "got it" after one viewing, or that he needs repeat play to see the light ?"



Pat:
For some years and perhaps recently because of a thread like this one I have been telling some people on this website that Seminole is one of those courses more than almost any other I've ever known  that some people just don't "get" after playing it once (I use the examples of TOC and Maidstone as courses that numerous people who play it once don't really "get").

I think variable wind and such may have something to do with that with Seminole as it certainly does at Maidstone and TOC but even with that I am beginning to wonder if some people just don't "get" a Seminole (or even a Maidstone) for other reasons and perhaps they just never will----and I am certainly not saying they are right or wrong. Maybe to them courses like a Seminole or a Maidstone or even TOC just don't cut it anymore for various reasons!

Let's just say that it wouldn't be the first time this has happened in golf and with golf architecture. Don't forget there was a time over 80 years ago when TOC got crucified architecturally by the likes of Joshua Crane and it wasn't as if he didn't have followers and supporters of his opinions!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Repeated play, with varying wind direction enhances the Seminole experience and that only comes with playing the course time and time again, which is a true luxury.

It has to be one of the greatest courses in the world for daily play.

The effect of the wind, on each hole, on each shot, is quite pronounced and provides for an incredibly diverse golf experience, one you would never tire of.

[Dean Stokes]

I was one of those, and I will readily admit it, that first time out on Seminole I left a little perplexed. Perhaps that was because of the expectation level that is there before you set foot on the property.

Not that I left that day feeling it was crappy and boring, but I maybe had not reached the wow factor I hoped for.

Today I would say it is deserved of the praise it receives. It is a fabulous layout and one you could definitely play everyday.

For me, the more times you play it, the more misses you are going to see and then you get the genius of the architecture. Apart from the fact you need every shot in the bag, the land is brilliantly used and the green complexes and bunkering are tremendous.

You really begin to figure out what you can and can't get away with out there and the strategy you need to employ.

[Lester George]

Patrick,

2nd green 50 to 70 feet high?  Are you kidding?  Where do we go from that?

Lester

[Mike_Young]

Ernest Jones greens

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick,

2nd green 50 to 70 feet high?  Are you kidding?  Where do we go from that?

Lester

Well it sure felt that high. Studying my approach shot I was thinking it was the most up hill approach shot I'd seen in a while. The green is probably only 30 feet high but was accentuated by the hurting wind as well. #11 was maybe a little higher.

[Lester George]

Patrick,

The 2nd green is, in fact, 29 or 30 feet.

Lester

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom,

thanks for your post. Sorry I didn't stay on and missed your response. I can certainly see where you are coming from. I understand why some people love the course, and I can also see how some people say they like it, because everyone else says its good. I finally played a decent Ross course in Philly, Jeffersonville, And love how Ross courses actually play. Pinehurst #2 on Tiger woods, fantastic. There is no denying how great his courses are strategically and that is no different at Seminole.

Just because a course has architectural merit does not mean I have to like it. I can appreciate how good a certain musician is, but that does not mean I am putting them on my ipod. In my mind Seminole is no different. I can walk the course, see its architecture, see the strategy, the "fantastic" routing, but it did not appeal to me. The urge to want to play was just not there when I was walking the course. Now NGLA & Friars head, thats a different story.




I'm sure chicken feet taste great, but its not for me.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Ok sorry it took so long but on to the back nine of Jones-Hodgdon III with Hodgdon down 3 after he shoots 42... to Jones' 43 with his 5 shots.

#10 Is another benign par-4 380 yards, like #1 going out parallel to it away from the clubhouse. The hole has water that cuts into it on the left hand side and the caddy gave us our hybrids on the tee. I pulled mine a bit left and although I was told we would find it, it went into the water. Jason however donated 2 balls to the driving range which was to the right of the hole. I hit a pitching wedge from the front of the water and I aimed left of the flag with the wind blowing mostly left to right. Little did I know that the green actually tilts from left to right so when I hit it on the left side of the green I actually had a downhill putt. This is a good little hole which I would play totally differently next time I play it. Up 1 on the back after Jason conceded on the tee.

#11 is a 390 yard par 4 that like #2 runs straight up the dune about 30-40 feet above the fairway. Unlike #2 it's a straight hole but Ross adds a cross bunker right in the middle of the fairway. Into the wind it was just our of reach from the tee. I pulled my drive left onto #2 but hit a 7-iron that played the wind left to right to the front left of the green. The caddy had instructed me to go anywhere but right of the flag. Jason nutted his drive down the middle as did my 20 handicap brother. Jason then crushed an 8-iron I think that rolled off the back of the green. I two putted while he took 3 to get down. My 4 was only good enough for the halve though as it's the #2 HCP and Jones stroked. My brother amazingly hit his two best shots of the day and made par, he was pumped. Still up 1.

#12 is the shortest par-4 on the course at 360 yards and was downwind, down hill. It starts in the far North West corner of the property running along the north border of the property. I hit a nice drive down the middle that stayed right in between the left and right bunkers that are about 80 yards short of the green. I then stuffed a sand wedge to 3 feet into a short left pin tucked behind two big greenside bunkers. Easily my two best shots of the day. Jason meanwhile made a nice recovery from the right side to make 5 but not enough to beat my only birdie of the day. (Which I needed since he stroked.) Up 2 now and feeling much better.

#13 is a fantastic little up hill par 3 at 165 yards that continues down the north side of the property now up the dune that runs on the east side of the property. Unfortunately I chunked another par-3 tee shot short while Jason's was so good we were yelling for it to get in the hole. It was 10 feet short but he calmly two putted for his par to beat my 4. Up 1.

#14 is a par-5 at 502 yards that runs from on top of the east dune to a green set into the west dune. It's really hard to pick a favorite hole at Seminole but I really liked #14 and might give it the nod which is saying something obviously. The tee-box is cut back low into the dune and hedges creating a skyline tee box with the ocean behind it. It has a creek that runs along the left side for half the hole separating it from #15 and a bunker on the right. Unfortunately I hooked my ball left and was unable to find it over on the #15 side of the creek. I dropped a ball and hit it back in the fairway while Jason pushed another drive right and played back into the fairway. He hit a great shot that spun off the front of the severely sloped back to front green that runs back into the two large front bunkers. I chunked another wedge only to chip the next one into the back bunker. Having  the toughest shot all day I was happy to hit a great bunker shot that trickled down to pin high and left me a 4 footer. Jason got his out of the bunker and two putted for 6. Back to even.

#15 is another par 5 at 475 yards, this one that heads back out to the middle of the property and takes a right. Oh yea and don't forget it has a cape like tee shot with a double fairway split by and island of 3-4 bunkers. Jason killed his drive over the bunkers to perfect position which of course caused me to over-swing and pull it left. I struggled to get it on in 5 and make 6 while Jason made 5 for 4. And that did it for the 18 hole match as I was closed out 4 and 3. Down 1 on the back.

#16 is a 395 yard par 4 which dog legs right back toward the 14th tee where the green is perched on the dune running alongside the ocean. The caddy handed us hybrids off the tee as a driver straight can run through the fairway straight and Ross cleverly hides bunkers on the inside part of the dogleg all the way to 30 yards short of the green. Thus the player trying to cut the corner must carry bunkers all the way down as the fairway also narrows as it gets closer to the green. The green meanwhile is 15-20 feet elevated and sloped from back to front with multiple run offs. 3 of us missed deep right of the green between the right and back bunkers. I was very lucky to get up and down from that spot as the downhill chip to a middle pin was no piece of cake. Jason didn't get up and down but had a stroke so I was still down 1.

#17 is a tough as nails par-3 playing 162 yards and for us was into a stiff wind. I hit my 3rd par 3 tee ball fat and was short in the greenside bunker. Not only that but my ball buried in the bunker. I was lucky to get it out and send it all the way to the back of the green. Lucky for me my 2 putt 4 beat Jason's 5 and he finally didn't stroke. Back all even and I press 18.

#18 is a 398 yard par-4 playing along the oceanside dune back to the clubhouse. It was mostly into the wind off the tee and cross on the approach shot. The tee-shot is downhill crossing over the partially exposed dune and gorse which comes into play all along the left side of the hole up to the green. I crushed my drive to about 100 yards out while Jason hooked not one but two into the junk on the left. He was however able to find his ball and punch out. I hit my approach onto the very front right corner of the green about 2 inches away from falling into a 15-20 foot steep greenside bunker. Unfortunately for Jason but fortunately for me his short game abandoned him as he chunked two straight chips in front of the green. I clamly two putted to win 2 ways on the back and only lose $2 all day.

I honestly couldn't believe I had just shot 83 at Seminole after the round. I must have just been so distracted to concentrate on what I was scoring. Or maybe it was Jason bringing his A+ game that inspired me to play well. Even more confounding for me was how I had done it. Normally my length gives me an advantage on the par 5's as I often am able to hit some in 2 and usually have my 1 birdie on average per round on a par-5. In this round I had 1 par, 2 bogeys and a double for 4 over. Likewise on the par 3's I had 3 bogeys and a double for 5 over. Meanwhile on the par 4's I somehow had 1 birdie, 6 pars, and 3 bogeys. I don't think I've ever not had at least one double on a par 4 in a round, let alone been only 2 over on them. Not sure if this says anything about Seminole's design or just a strange round for me.

I'll post more on my overall thoughts in a bit.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Ryan- 
You are certainly entilted to your opinion and Seminole obviously doesn't need me to defend it  but I just don't get how you can make all these statements regarding your dislike for the course when you haven't teed a ball up at the place and have only walked it.   
Mike

[Chip Gaskins]

The problem is that most golfers are focused on their game as they play the course and they don't project or visualize what the holes would be like under conditions that differ from those they're encountering as they play that day.

This tunnel vision is what tends to produce erroneous assessments from the unelightened 

So unless you can drink the entire case of wine, your first bottle isn't enough to make an assessment?  I simply find that hard to believe.  I have not played Seminole, but to basically mandate that player has to play multiple rounds to have their assessment mean anything is a bit of a little stretch. 

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan- 
You are certainly entilted to your opinion and Seminole obviously doesn't need me to defend it  but I just don't get how you can make all these statements regarding your dislike for the course when you haven't teed a ball up at the place and have only walked it.   
Mike

I tend to the think I see much more of the course walking it, then I do playing. If I cant play 10 rounds and experience how a hole plays based on different tee shots and miscues then what is the difference? 1 play does not give you a better perspective, it gives a narrow perspective. When walking I think about how the hole would play if your over here or over there, or there instead of here....... if you catch my drift. When I play I tend to just think about the shot I just hit, and my shot coming up.


And were talking about Seminole here, not the easiest club to get out there and play a round? Sometimes you just have to take what you can get. I've missed out entirely on seeing some clubs because some people are just to busy to answer the phone or respond to an e-mail.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Ryan-

Ryan- 
You are certainly entilted to your opinion and Seminole obviously doesn't need me to defend it  but I just don't get how you can make all these statements regarding your dislike for the course when you haven't teed a ball up at the place and have only walked it.   
Mike

I tend to the think I see much more of the course walking it, then I do playing. If I cant play 10 rounds and experience how a hole plays based on different tee shots and miscues then what is the difference? 1 play does not give you a better perspective, it gives a narrow perspective. When walking I think about how the hole would play if your over here or over there, or there instead of here....... if you catch my drift. When I play I tend to just think about the shot I just hit, and my shot coming up.

I just think your opinion of the course would be much different if you had gone there that day, got your clubs out of your trunk and played the course. Instead of walking the place with the Ross documents in your hand.

Maybe if you had a 4 ball and played a nassau, maybe you even had a beer at the tunr you might have realized what a fun place it is to play golf.

What you did does not sound like "fun" to me. It sounds like work.

Ryan, you may be able to coment all you want on the way Lindsay Lohan looks, but I bet if you got to spend a couple hours with her, you may be better inclined to comment on what shes acctually like  .

[Patrick_Mucci]

The problem is that most golfers are focused on their game as they play the course and they don't project or visualize what the holes would be like under conditions that differ from those they're encountering as they play that day.

This tunnel vision is what tends to produce erroneous assessments from the unelightened 

So unless you can drink the entire case of wine, your first bottle isn't enough to make an assessment?  I simply find that hard to believe. 

Chip, that's a horrible analogy.  You're trying to compare a multi-dimensional exercise and evaluation with a narrow, singular exercise and evaluation.  Under your theory one would just need one sip as soon as the bottle was opened.  Yet,  with a little breathing, even wine changes in taste with more sips/play

I have not played Seminole,

Then you wouldn't understand why you NEED repeated play.


but to basically mandate that player has to play multiple rounds to have their assessment mean anything is a bit of a little stretch. 

Obvioulsy you haven't read "Scotland's Gift", specifically, page 295, where Charles Blair Macdonald states,
" I do not believe any one is qualified to pass on the merits of any one hole, let alone eighteen holes, unless he has played them under  all the VAYING conditions possible, varying WINDS, rain, heat, frosts, etc..

WIND I consider the FINEST ASSET in golf, in itself if is one of the greatest and most delightful accompaniments in the game
Without wind your course is always the same, but as the wind varies in velocity and from the various points of the compass, you not only have one course, but you have many courses."

Seminole, sitting on the Atlantic Ocean, embodies Macdonald's writings, but, you wouldn't know that unless you've played their multiple times and experienced the VAST differences in how the course plays with different wind patterns and speeds

[JC Jones]

Well, it was pretty damned good on my 1 assessment.  I can only hope I get more so as to fully validate my opinion

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I've had two weeks now to try and put my finger on what makes Seminole so special. It took Jason about 10 different adjectives to sum it up and I agree with the statement he made:

"Seminole is fun, strategic, sporty, intoxicating, stimulating, perplexing, invigorating, frustrating, amazing and fantastic."

I also liked what Dan relayed from a long time member:

I was playing ok that day, and later in the round the course was becoming more and more impressive. Wonderful green sites, great routing, great use of undulation, etc. My host, I'm guessing a 25 year+ member, said around the 14th hole is where he always feels the course starts to repeat like a great symphony. What a great summation, IMO.

Here's what I've decided I think is what sets Seminole apart from other Doak 7's and 8's and makes it a 9:

Intimacy.

From at least one spot on every hole you can see at least 5 other holes on the course and a lot of times almost the whole course (or at least all 4 sides of it). The course just has this intimate aspect to it that I don't think I've ever seen or read about in other courses.

At just about every spot you can't wait to see where Ross is going to lead you next. You never play more than two holes in the same general direction and as such the ever present wind is always changing from behind, on the side, into, from the other side etc. Which adds to the variety in holes as well. At some points you are salivating to get to the next hole, like on #1 and #10 where you can see #2 and #11 behind it and can't wait to charge up the dune on those holes; and on some you are wishing you could go back and play the last hole again but play it better than you just did. For instance at #10 I both wanted to get out and see the back nine and run back to #9 tee and play the hole better than I just had.

Some people would just say that the land itself creates some of this effect but from what I've read about the stories of construction at Seminole, mostly in Klein's book on Ross, Ross did extensive clearing of the middle of the property (the low part which is mostly flat) to open it up. Thus the routing and the way Ross brilliantly repeats the up, onto, and down the large dune on the west side of the property on both the front and back nines as well as the openness that allows for many long views throughout the round create an intimacy that the entire property shares with the golfer. I agree with the longtime member above that at 14 the course beautifully starts to repeat some of it's best aspects as in a symphony, mainly the use of both the two opposing dunes' elevation.

One other analogy (that applies less and less these days with the advent of iTunes and the single song download) is that I can see how Seminole would have the characteristics of a really great musical album where you love a handful of songs by the artist or group which makes you buy/download the C.D. Then, however, after listening to the C.D. as a whole a few times you start to really appreciate the "other" songs on the C.D. and soon later they become your favorites from the album. I've only played Seminole once but I have a hunch that the course is this way too over a time of repeated play in which the golfer learns to love all the little sometimes hidden aspects of the design and appreciate some of the holes that others might gloss over their first time out there.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I'm curious if any of the other top courses in the world are as open and intimate as Seminole in the sense you can see a lot of the entire property from a lot of different spots around the course?

[JC Jones]

I'm curious if any of the other top courses in the world are as open and intimate as Seminole in the sense you can see a lot of the entire property from a lot of different spots around the course?

Im curious to know the brand of the cheese spread.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I'm curious if any of the other top courses in the world are as open and intimate as Seminole in the sense you can see a lot of the entire property from a lot of different spots around the course?

Im curious to know the brand of the cheese spread.

I thought she said it was some brand of Wisconsin cheddar, no?

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