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Big Pete

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #225 on: February 04, 2010, 04:52:19 PM »
I love really good short 4's
It seems to me that most of the classic courses have good short 4's
And Barnbougle has a bunch of short 4's that give you options and make you think your way through the hole
The 15th was named "The Cut" after the waterway to the right which is where you head for if you hit a slice into the wind ( or a cut)
There are 4 options off the tee -
1 . Carry the fairway bunker leaving a simple pitch to the green
2 . Lay up short of the fairway bunker , leaving a short iron straight up the green - albeit semi blind below the bunker
3 . The right landing area - which is elevated and leaves a short iron in with full visibility
4 . The left landing area -which leaves a slightly longer shot in at an angle to the green - and which can be totally blind

This is also one of the really good holes for ladies because the bunker can be carried by a good shot - giving them plenty to think about
But I digress...

I cannot carry the bunker , so option 1 for me is not an option! But long hitters can
I used to try the right fairway , because I am an accurate tee shot and it does reward you with a nice shot in...but I found the tee shot was too risky - there is quite a steep ridge here which kicks the ball left into the bunker and right of the ridge the landing area is very small ,blind to the tee , and surrounded with marram

I would recommend most people lay up short of the bunker - 3 Wood at most off the tee -(Clayts?) - so they can hit up the length of the green and partially see where they are going

However most people go left with driver and have a blind shot in - but depending on the wind this can be a mid to short iron in . You just have to know that left is death...
But the green is not that hard to hit
It is an exciting shot , though...
And part of the round I always look forward to!

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #226 on: February 04, 2010, 07:43:45 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for the thoughts.

I'd have to question whether carrying the bunker is really an option, even for long hitters.  If they can clear it (no problem in calm conditions; debatable into strong headwind) it appears to be on a direct line to the bunker built into the ridge.  I would think that anything that is able to carry the bunker would easily run out into the next one.  They are not that far apart.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #227 on: February 04, 2010, 08:40:59 PM »
Peter has described the way I would play this hole, if I ever get back there.

Bryan, if you can carry the bunker playing into the wind, there's enough room for the drive to stop.  But downwind it's not really an option.

I had to be convinced to put in the central fairway bunker by Mike Clayton and Brian Schneider.  I was tempted not to have any bunker in the fairway, just the low ridgeline that separates the high right side from the left.  I thought that the right side was so narrow no one would take the risk of going over there, and a bunker would just be forcing everyone way left; but Mike thought that without the bunker, the tee shot would be too simple.

I do agree with Bryan that the second shot is very difficult from the left, because of the narrowness of the green and the prevailing wind.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #228 on: February 04, 2010, 09:45:16 PM »
I know people who think the 13th green is nothing but a joke - Graham Marsh for one - but it is one of the very few par threes - I can't think of too many others - where you have to control perfectly what the ball does when it hits the ground.You have to hit the right shape, the right trajectory and land it in the right place and then watch it run.
There are obviously others like the North Berwick Redan but this one is the ultimate bit of fun to me.
And that shot varies so much depending on where the pin is cut
The right shot will do what it needs to do to get close and it is the first par three I would play for fun anywhere in the world.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #229 on: February 04, 2010, 10:04:44 PM »


Tom,

I'm skeptical about stopping the drive over the bunker into the wind.  As I measure it on the aerial there's only 20 yards from the back of the centre bunker to the dune bunker.  Given it's a 250 yard carry, it seemed unlikely that the ball would stop in 20 yards on firm surfaces even into the wind.  In any event, it seems like a very low percentage shot compared to other options.

As to the need for the bunker, I think I'd come down on your side.  It makes a difficult hole (in the wind) even more difficult.  If the preponderance of days are relatively calm then it adds something to the hole.


Mike,

Although 13 might your first choice for playing a par 3 for fun, how would you feel about it if you were playing a Euro Tour event there?  Of course, most everybody who plays there should be playing it for fun.




Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #230 on: February 05, 2010, 12:03:33 AM »
Brian,

It's a good question - because hole can be much different beasts with a card in the pocket.
I still think I would reallly enjoy trying to answer the questions it asks - and some would figure it out and some would moan about it.
I don't think the question is that hard to figure out and the shot that answers the question is really fun - no matter whether it was in a tournament or not - and its not like 13 is a hole you are going to have a disaster.
I would much rather play it than 17 at TPC.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #231 on: February 05, 2010, 12:32:54 AM »


I think of the 17th at Sawgrass as a binary hole.  You take the swing, and after a couple of seconds you know that it's highly likely you'll either get par or better or bogey or worse.

The 13th at Barnbougle is more of a continuum without so many outliers.  Three seconds after the swing you probably have little idea what your final score will be.  After 7 to 10 minutes on the hole you know how it turned out and it's most likely par or bogey.

Whichever you like probably depends on whether you like instant gratification or the more slowly released variety.

I enjoyed both holes.  But, Barnbougle is probably more fun for me because it lasts longer.


Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #232 on: February 05, 2010, 12:44:16 AM »
Just want to express my thanks for this thread, Bryan.

It's been an awesome 2 weeks! ;D

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #233 on: February 05, 2010, 12:49:07 AM »


You're welcome Alex, but I think the thanks need to go to Tom, Mike, Ian, Peter, David, et al who have contributed great input to the discussion.  I've provided a framework; they've provided the insight and colour.  For that I am thankful.


Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #234 on: February 05, 2010, 12:53:05 AM »


You're welcome Alex, but I think the thanks need to go to Tom, Mike, Ian, Peter, David, et al who have contributed great input to the discussion.  I've provided a framework; they've provided the insight and colour.  For that I am thankful.



True, how inconsiderate of me!

These threads are my personal favorites, and they only could be that way with everyone's input so thanks to all.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #235 on: February 05, 2010, 01:16:13 AM »


Hole #16 Par 3 153 meters (168 yards)

We're still continuing into the wind.  It would be fair to point out that the layout of the holes is not exactly linear up and down wind.  The 16th is in fact maybe a 45* different direction than 15 although I describe both as being into the wind.  In fact, the wind is into you on 15, but is pushing a bit to the right.  On 16 it  is into you but pushing a bit to the the left.  By this point in the round I was so battered by the wind that these nuances were lost on me, to the detriment of my score, no doubt.

From the back tees the most noticeable feature is a huge bunker built into a dune that partially obscures the left portion of the green.  The other obvious thing of note is the slope of the green. Should you try to hit a cut in and use the slope of the green; or, draw it in and try to stop it at the flag and into the slope.  Of course the slightly crossing wind needs to be considered in executing either of those shots.  My draw assisted by the wind started nicely before turning into a 30 yard hook.  Such things happen when I try to knock down a 4 iron into the wind.  And, it probably should have been a 3 iron anyway.

The doubt that was in my mind on this hole was did I have too much club.  Playing it as a two club wind seemed dangerous when my ball disappeared over the huge bunker.  I figured I'd hammered it into the backing dune.  Only to find, to my delight that not only wasn't it not too far but that it fed down to the front left corner of the green.  Three putts later it didn't seem so fine.





Now, I must give credit once again for the location of the forward tees.  How often do you find that the architects have just thrown in forward tees as an afterthought.  Well on this hole, not only did they provide a similar look to the tips, on a more manageable scale, but they also put the tee on the highest and most picturesque dune on the property.

Minor complaint though.  On the first round we couldn't find the forward tee.  Bright guy that I am, I said nah, don't climb up the hill.  Who'd put the forward tees way up there.  Oooops, found it the second time around.





If you can handle the wind, the green is large and reaching it should happen more often than not.  But being on is no guarantee of a par. The green is significantly sloped and also has some internal movement to increase the challenge of the putting.

I noticed that the rough behind the green has been cut back which leads me to believe that with a lesser wind in your face it must be relatively easy to go through the green.

 

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #236 on: February 05, 2010, 07:19:43 AM »
Great write-up on 15, it is one of my favourite holes there.

A few more pics to add.








Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #237 on: February 05, 2010, 11:30:23 AM »


Thanks for the additional pictures.  The first one suggest to me that the right fairway is more humpbacked than I remember.  Looks like drives could be kicked off right into the dunes.  Makes that side even riskier.







Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #238 on: February 05, 2010, 06:59:08 PM »
the play for me on that hole is to just lay up short of the central bunker, so I didn't consider it too much.

The best golfer I played with there, went right of the bunker with driver and was in postion A

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #239 on: February 05, 2010, 08:53:13 PM »


Thanks for the additional pictures.  The first one suggest to me that the right fairway is more humpbacked than I remember.  Looks like drives could be kicked off right into the dunes.  Makes that side even riskier

Brian,

have a very close look at your overhead photo.  there is a lot of 'hidden' fairway out to the right n the driving zone.  In andrews picture that you posted i would estimate that there would be an extra 15 yards of fairway that you cant see.  a few times i have aimed for the right fairway, hit a decent slice, and been surprised to see my ball n the fairway.  there is a lot more room there than you think, standing on the tee.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Andrew Thomson

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #240 on: February 05, 2010, 11:07:18 PM »
also well illustrated by this picture


Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #241 on: February 06, 2010, 06:18:15 PM »
Sorry I missed the discussions last week.

I just wanted to add how much I enjoyed the green on the 13th and how every pin has a two putt solution from every corner of the green. Peter proved it to me on the one I could not figure out.

Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #242 on: February 06, 2010, 06:38:26 PM »
Tom,

The 16th:

Our group tried different tees and different shots we even tried different recovery shots and even rolled a few by hand. I can honestly say I’m not sure if I fully get the hole. Each of the other threes creates an interesting decision on how to play the hole. On the 16th our group found the most success by simply playing at the back (or back left depending on the tee) since all shots came down onto the middle of the green. All other routes were not worth the risk with such a large backstop to help.

I would love to know what you intended the play to be, or the alternatives for that matter. We struggled to get the ball to feed onto the green from the left gap. They seemed to come up short if hit up top or run through if slightly too far along the ramp in. Was that intended to be used as an alternative route in?

Was there any consideration at any point to place the green higher up in the dunes?

I really enjoyed the entire experience at Barnbougle Dunes, but the 16th left me with questions I wanted to ask you.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #243 on: February 06, 2010, 07:30:10 PM »
Ian:

I think it's fair to say we struggled with the 16th more than other holes.  I haven't had as much chance to play the hole as you have, but I wasn't happy with the lack of release from the high left slot down to the green.  We were probably too concerned with the potential for washouts from off the green, and didn't let the slot kick in there fast enough.  And it was tough to make good tie-ins on the right, because of the little wet area to the right of the green.

We did not consider alternative locations for the green, as we didn't want to get any further away from the 17th tee than we already were.  We did look at other tee locations including one over to the left of the 15th, but that was going to be very blind, and again the little wet area argued against that.

Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #244 on: February 06, 2010, 11:20:36 PM »
Tom,

Thanks as always.

I had wondered if the 17th and the 15th played a role, both are great holes.

Leo Barber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #245 on: February 06, 2010, 11:26:40 PM »
I had a shot on the 16th which in many ways summed up my appreciation for the course - the clever design of its green complexes and the often forgotten element of "fun" (which incidently many architects proclaim with the very few who can embrace and deliver it).  I struck a 7iron into the breeze and played it safe out to the slope LHS of the green (the RHS looked almost like a wetland).  I hit it fair and as I bent down to pick up my tee already contemplating a chip and a couple of putts (perhaps a delay of a few seconds), my partners began to chorus.  I looked up to see my ball appear from behind the dune on the left and begin to feed onto the green. After a further few seconds - of which were extremely exhillirating I might add - my ball tracked across the green over the various slopes and eventually settled 6 inches from the hole location middle RHS.  The next day I tried again and found the extreme LHS bunker which was dead and the week after I was at the national moonah where I felt the opposite applied with the slopes shaped to almost repell the ball and where the ground game was limited with the reward applied to only those very few of us whom can "screw it back".

Barnbougle Dunes is stunning.  It is a mix of clever design coupled with superb agromony and particularly grass selection which fully compliments the intent.  Great thread Brian

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #246 on: February 07, 2010, 04:56:44 PM »


Hole #17 Par 4  400 meters (440 yards)


Standing on the tee at the 17, buffeted by the wind, distracted by the beautiful views of dunes and sea, you are quickly given a slap upside your golfing head as you contemplate how to play this hole. 

I must say that after 16 holes of playing the back tees that I never felt that I was in over my head length-wise (although at almost 6,800 yards on a par of 71, I should be out of my comfort zone).  This hole took me out of my depth.  At 440 yards into a three club wind it got me wondering why I was walking back 70 yards to get up the dune to the tips. From one set of tees up it is much more manageable at  326 meters (359 yards).





The following is based on playing the hole into the prevailing brisk breeze.  I understand that it would be quite a different hole in calm conditions or with a following breeze.  Upwind from the back tee, this hole is a real examination of your golf game.  I tried the exam, and failed. 

This hole, stands out as perhaps the only hole on the course where there is no safe play off the tee.  The challenge/risk isn't left to the second shot.  It is staring you in the face on the tee.  From the aerial (and not at all visible from the tee) there are essentially two landing areas, one short of the bunkers and another past the bunkers, joined by a 30 yard wide neck of fairway. 

From the back tee, it is about 200 yards to reach the fairway and 270 yards to reach the neck of the fairway.  In the short landing area the fairway is about 25 yards, widening out to about 45 yards just short of the bunkers.  The second landing area past the bunkers is a generous 75 yards wide.

In breezy conditions I don't believe even the long hitters could fly the bunkers.  For the vast majority of short to medium hitters the problem is getting to the wider part of the first landing area.  With dunes of waving marram grass and the breeze in your face, this is a daunting tee shot.  Claustrophobic compared to what has come before.

From the 16 tee, the following picture shows a high level view of the 17th.  The 17th tee is about 50 yards down and to the right of this vantage point.  From the 17th tee the view is of waving marram grass and what looks to be an impossibly small landing area.





To set up the second shot the left side of the landing area provides a more open shot, while the right side is blinded by the bunker, albeit providing a shorter shot.  The second can be anywhere from a daunting 175 yards to an impossible 215 yards into the wind.

The fairway short of the green is defined by a ridge that runs from far right to short left and plays havoc with second shots that come up short.  There are no level lies to be had short, where a lot of shots knocked down by the wind will end up.





The complexity and problem of the green are not really revealed from where the second shots are hit.  The green is perched up about 4 feet from the fairway and surrounds, and is on a peninsula that extends out of the surrounding dunes at the rear of the green.  Any ball that doesn't land on the green is likely to be rejected by the embankment around the green.

Recovery from the closely mown surrounds will require a delicate and creative shot, especially to front pins.  It will likely be impossible to get a recovery from left of the green close to any left pin position as the green runs back and right.





The green itself, provides lots of internal movement to add insult to injury at the end of a difficult hole. 

For me, this was the most difficult hole on the course, deserving of being the third stroke hole.  Under the prevailing winds I think it is much harder than the first stroke hole - #8, and arguably harder than the second stroke hole - #18.  As your round draws to a close, your score is likely to be defined by your ability to survive 17 and 18 on the scorecard.












Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #247 on: February 07, 2010, 05:18:20 PM »
Bryan:

The hole isn't meant to play as hard as you describe it.  You are describing it from the back tee into a three-club wind.  From there, it's supposed to be hard ... the hole which separates the men from the boys, like the 16th at Deal or the 17th at St. Andrews.  The green is designed with the idea that a lot of people are going to be approaching it with a shortish third shot, so it's okay for there to be contours to separate the good ones from the not so good. 

The plateau of the green is natural, and as I mentioned at the turn, finding that green site was key to turning around the whole back nine routing.

I see from your picture that the little dune inside the start of the fairway has still not been converted to fairway.  We left it as marram when building the course, but I realized pretty quickly it would be too difficult for most people to carry from where you played the hole.  So they've stripped the marram off it, but they should soften it a bit so they can mow it down to fairway height.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #248 on: February 07, 2010, 06:20:00 PM »


Tom,

You could see my bitterness creeping through as I was separated to the boys side of the ledger.   ;D

From the back tees, in calm conditions, I think it would still be a difficult par because of the drive and particularly getting the second on the green.

On my second go-around I played the Boobyalla tees ( one up from the tips and named after a local ghost mining town) which reduces the hole to 326 meters.  In the three club wind it was a much more feasible hole, although the bunkers were now in play and the second shot following a good drive (which mine wasn't) would likely be a mid to long iron.  So, still a challenge.

In calm conditions, from the Boobyalla tees, there would be a lot more strategic choice off the tee.  The second shot would be a short iron and the green defenses would be an interesting challenge.

..........................

One other factor that I didn't mention is that playing the hole late in the day entails playing into the setting sun.  Which, at least I, find more difficult.  But, I guess that was inevitable once the routing decision was made to go west off the first tee. Any particular thinking on routing the first nine to the west and the second to the east?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #249 on: February 07, 2010, 10:20:58 PM »
Bryan:

As I mentioned before, the decision to go west off the first tee was mostly to keep from playing eight straight holes into the wind in the middle of the round.

When you have a clubhouse in the middle of an east-west oriented golf course with returning nines, you are screwed one way or the other ... either you play into the sun off the first tee, or up the 18th.  I don't like either, but I don't really have a preference between them.