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JC Jones

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2010, 09:52:57 AM »
It was such a beautiful view "before" and the golf hole was really designed around that view.

You better hope Pat Mucci doesn't see this comment ;D  Fortunately, especially for him, he is otherwise distracted by greatness today!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Emil Weber

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2010, 10:18:26 AM »
Looking back #9 at sunset

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2010, 12:29:02 PM »
When the course first opened it wasn't quite as hard and fast as it is now , and a decent drive placed you on the elevated ridge 150 metres out looking at a green sited with the spectacular beach as a backdrop( I may dig around for an old pic)
It was one of my really favourite shots in golf - the wind and pin positions dictated whether you attempted to fly to the heart of the green or bounce in from the left . It's still a very good hole but the clubhouse extension now blocks out the beach backdrop , and a decent drive runs down into the valley where the majority of balls gather .
For me the shot from down there with a wedge is still intriguing but not an all world shot
This is one of a number of holes that may benefit if reviewed by Tom at some stage


Peter,

It's strange to hear that a course is firmer and faster a few years after it is built.  I thought that courses/greens were generally most firm when brand new.  At least we can't blame the ball running further out on this hole on changes in the ball technology.

Re a review of the hole, what did you have in mind?  Further back tees to move the second shot back up the fairway?  Bunkers in the valley?  Moving the green further toward the bay and further to restore the view?  But, keep the current plan, for those in a 100 years who would want to restore it to the designer's original intent.

 

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2010, 02:24:37 PM »
Good drives don't run down into the valley - good drives finish up on top and that may mean hitting a three wood and not a driver.
Well hit but poorly positioned drives finish down in the valley.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2010, 02:39:14 PM »
Emil:

Your picture shows how steep that left-to-right bank is.  Eric Iverson spent 2-3 days working on that slope, which was even steeper to start with ... we had to taper it back so the ball wouldn't go screaming through the green, and we filled in some of the approach with that dirt.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2010, 02:47:00 PM »
It was such a beautiful view "before" and the golf hole was really designed around that view.

You better hope Pat Mucci doesn't see this comment ;D  Fortunately, especially for him, he is otherwise distracted by greatness today!

JC - please - I pointed out YEARS AGO that Tom Doak has stated he designs to maximize external views when they are available... you really think this sways Mucci?  You could tell him 2+2=4 and if he believes it's 5, he will accept no other answer.  And I admire you for the tenacity, but the list of those trying to get him to admit error - and failing - is a long, long, long one.  Best for your sanity to just give it up.  You're not gonna get any blood from that turnip, believe me.

 ;)

George Pazin

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #131 on: January 28, 2010, 02:48:32 PM »
I agree with Ian, thanks Tom and Mike for providing the additional insights.

Looking forward to the back 9.

Huck knows nothing sways Pat on a mission... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #132 on: January 28, 2010, 02:52:00 PM »


As we pause for a moment at the turn, I'm getting curious as to who did what to whom that resulted in the finished product.  Tom, you've indicated in an earlier post that a dune on 3, I think, was removed after you left.  And, just above that Eric shaped the side of 9 green.  Or that somebody else did the 7th green.

Did you or Mike have final say on how the dune was removed or the slope on 9 is graded, or is that work delegated to team members? Were you and Mike the final arbiters on all design and routing decisions?  Bunker location, sizing and construction?  Finishing touches? Given the other thread about the unnamed Phillie course, who decides about the seeds?  Perhaps with a few answers here we can save future forensic architectural researchers from going crazy trying to infer what happened. 

If this is too intrusive or time consuming, I understand.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #133 on: January 28, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »
Bryan:

I'm happy to address your questions, although the truth is that the whole endeavour is a team effort, and sometimes you can't really say or can't remember who really came up with this idea or that.  I've thrown in some of the particulars that I can recall distinctly, but there are hundreds of decisions that are made along the way.

As preamble, we started construction at Barnbougle almost immediately after Cape Kidnappers was completed.  Most of my crew had been in New Zealand for six months and were anxious to get back home; my associate Brian Schneider and his fiancee were the only ones really enthusiastic about staying down under.  Plus, we were on a very tight budget and it was not clear that our client would pay for the whole army to be there, so he got the youngest, most inexperienced guy on my crew.  I had faith that he would make the most of the opportunity.

Brian was assisted by Mike Clayton's team, including Ashley Mead running the job and Jason McCarthy doing a lot of shaping, and by three interns from RGD ... Kyle Franz who had worked a bit at Pacific Dunes, Philippe Binette who now works with Rod Whitman, and George Waters who did a lot of the work at the Cal Club.  The latter two were straight out of school, and about the time they had to return, I sent over Chad Grave who was also straight out of school.

Our process is that I'll give the guys plenty to work on while I'm away, but then I'll bring another shaper when I make a visit so we can shift into high gear and knock out several greens in ten days' time.  That's what Eric Iverson's role was; he came with me while Brian was on his honeymoon, and he knocked out greens 6-7-8-9 while he was there, on top of tweaking a couple of the back nine greens that Brian had done, and the left landing area on #8 which took a lot of work.  Nearly all of the greens were built with me on site, and then they would go and dig bunkers and do the other stuff (based on my flags in the ground, with license to change the shapes) while I was away.  It was a very small crew with only 3 pieces of construction equipment, so the work went fairly slowly, and I would get back every six weeks and work on 4-6 holes at a time.

I mentioned the mound on the third green because it was one of the very rare things that someone else decided after I'd left.  On my last construction visit we were trying to get that green done and most of the equipment was broken down, and I was trying to massage that mound with a 1970's bulldozer that had no horsepower left, so I couldn't get it finished and left Brian to make the final call.  There may be one or two greens like that on some of my courses, but they are the exceptions rather than the norm.

The job ran so smoothly that it's pretty much been my model for how to organize other jobs since.  I wasn't really on site that many days, but by comparison to most modern courses, there wasn't a lot to build.

Mike Clayton was there every 2-3 weeks on his own schedule, and he would give Brian and the others his input for edits as he watched what they built, or he'd email me and ask about a particular hole and share a different idea for it.  I don't remember as much detail about those things as I remember what we did when I was on site.

Ian Andrew

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #134 on: January 28, 2010, 03:40:52 PM »
We played the 9th both days from the back of the 8th green on the small plateau off to the left. You had to hit a great drive to have a good look at the green. No chance to hit it down the slope. We thought the hole was great from there since the back tee was closed and Peter suggested we give it a try.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #135 on: January 28, 2010, 04:07:06 PM »


Thanks Tom, that was great.  And, here I thought it was all glamor and glory, and not broken down 70's dozers.   ;)


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #136 on: January 28, 2010, 04:37:02 PM »
Ian:

I was going to ask if anybody ever used that left-hand tee ... it was meant to be an alternate tee, even though it's so close to the 8th green that you can't really put the markers on it.  It does make getting around the corner a much different story.  Did they show you where Greg Ramsay wanted the hole to go down the valley to the left instead? 

Emil Weber

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #137 on: January 28, 2010, 04:52:09 PM »
we had to taper it back so the ball wouldn't go screaming through the green, and we filled in some of the approach with that dirt.

its till does ;D

David_Elvins

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #138 on: January 28, 2010, 05:00:26 PM »
I was going to ask if anybody ever used that left-hand tee ... it was meant to be an alternate tee, even though it's so close to the 8th green that you can't really put the markers on it.   
I have used it a couple of times.  A much harder hole from there I think. 

As a slighlty amusing aside, the golf course guru, Tony Titheridge was armed with a mountain of knowledge when he made his first trip to barnbougle.  he had heard there was a 'secret unofficial' tee back and left of the 8th green.  So on the completion of the hole he walked off the back ofthe green and into the dunes to find the tee. For 5 minutes he search but had no luck then he called ove rhis playing partner and two caddies and together for another 5 minutes they scrounged around in the dunes, on the beach and everywhere in between looking for the secret tee, never realising that when someone said back left of the 8th green they meant literally 1 yard back and 1 yard left. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #139 on: January 28, 2010, 06:26:18 PM »
 :)  That makes up for the picture of #9.

Big Pete

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2010, 09:41:15 PM »
Clayts
Most people don't play off the back tee
And even if the punters do know the hole well enough to only hit an iron / fairway wood off the tee to the  designated ridge , who is going to forego hitting driver to  the safety of a bowl and having wedge in , so they can hit the dream shot from 150 metres?
Nobody does it - and I see hundreds coming through...
And the backdrop is gone

Matt_Ward

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #141 on: January 28, 2010, 09:52:54 PM »
Mike C:

Curious to know -- if there's a downwind situation at #9 and you get strong hitter busting driver -- how close to the green can they come ?


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #142 on: January 29, 2010, 01:06:56 AM »


Matt,

The hole is 377 yards tee to centre of green as the crow flies.  If your bomber can fly it 300 yards and pick the correct line and hit it on that line then it seems quite likely they could drive the green, or indeed run it through into the clubhouse.  But, there is death to the left and ugly scrub to the right if you go too far and slopes and bumps just waiting to throw the ball off into bad places.  But, it'd be fun to watch people try it.



Duncan Betts

Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #143 on: January 29, 2010, 01:12:06 AM »
I've seen a 20 capper on the front edge down wind.  He is a big bomber though, and didn't actually hit the shot with the green in mind, but it took a good bounce and just kept on going.

I was playing my third shot at the time, from down in the collection bowl!

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #144 on: January 29, 2010, 01:55:53 AM »
After a very short walk past the clubhouse, we're ready to start the back nine.

Hole #10 409 meters (450 yards)

Still going down the prevailing wind.  Somewhere down the road there's going to be a price paid for all these down wind holes.  At first glance, the back nine appears to be more open - the dunes less sharp.  The 10th, as shown in the aerial, has a huge expanse of fairway some 50 to 60 yards wide past the left fairway bunker.  The hole bends a bit to the left depending on how much you want to miss the fairway bunker by.





From behind the back tee the green can be seen perched up on a dune ridge up the left edge of the fairway.  The wide expanse of fairway seems to be luring you off to the right.  Strategically I don't see much advantage to either side of the fairway.  Perhaps the right side is a little more direct up the ridge?  In any event, down wind with that huge expanse out there the temptation is to just grip it and rip it.





From a little closer up on the more forward tees the green is more visible (at least to the zoomed camera lens).  The only trouble is to avoid that fairway bunker. Although the long hitter could carry it, there doesn't seem to be any reason to do so.





The second shot is going to be a short iron with the wind and maybe mid-iron on a calmer day.  Into the wind approaching the green would be much more difficult. The most striking feature of the hole is the green site.  It is a true trompe l'oeil.  The pin position this day looks like it's near the front, when actually it is well back in the green.  And, what a nice skyline; nothing to help with depth perception.





From the fairway it is hard to discern where the green actually is.  The leading edge of the front of the green and the ridge line behind the green are so neatly arranged that it is impossible to tell what's forward, what's back, and what's in between.  On the first play, I hit a 6 iron in thinking I needed to fly it up top or risk having it come way back down the ridge.  I saw the ball land toward the right half of the green, take a few hops and come to rest.  I shook my head, wondering how I could have hit it over the green onto the back ridge.  When I climbed the ridge to the green I was shocked to discover that I was actually short of the green.  The green is artfully set in a bit of a depression between the front ridge and the back ridge.

From this close up photo of the front edge you can see the subtle difference in grass color between fairway and green that helps trick the eye.  And, even from close in the heart of the green is still not visible.  But some humps that suggest it's going to be interesting the putt this green.  

Even from in close, what a wonderful example of a skyline green.





And, courtesy of David, a picture of the green contours.  As David says: "The pin can be an automatic 3 putt or automatic 1 putt depending if it is in a bowl or on a ridge."





Yet another hole where length is not an issue, but dealing with the green complex is everything.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 11:53:08 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2010, 03:14:16 AM »
Pete,

It's true they don't hit hit 3 woods to stay up - but they should. I would bet Tiger and Hogan would both lay it back on the top and take the 8 iron v the wedge.

Matt
It is a pretty steep rise from the bottom of the valley - but maybe a long hitter could get it up within 100 yards but it isn't really the shot.
The left tee at 9 - one that has never had a tee marker on it - is a great tee shot and it makes the shot to the top of the hill the more obvious one to hit because of the change in the angle of the shot - slightly more across the fairway as opposed to down it.
And its a much shorter walk!

David_Elvins

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2010, 04:18:59 AM »
It took a while for the tenth hole to get some respect.  Like mentioned about the 6th, if these are the average holes, it is some course.  I think most now realise that the green is one of the best on the course.  The pin can be an automatic 3 putt or automatic 1 putt depending if it is in a bowl or on a ridge.  Another hole that plays well into the wind.

Here is a photo of the great green contours. 



And here is a bit of golf porn - 9th green from a totally irrelevant angle. 

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2010, 06:13:50 AM »
It's been great following the discussion on a course I've been lucky enough to play lots of times.

To add some context to the discussion, readers may see that the 10th is a par 4 of reasonable length.

The wind at Barnbougle has been so strong that I've been around 5m short of that green, playing from the 2nd to last tees.

It has also required a 5 iron approach of mine on one time.

The 7th has been beyond reach of a well struck 4 iron.

I've also hit the 8th green with driver sand wedge from the back tees (442m / 480 odd yds).

Bridport really is a windy place. The course is just so well designed for the various winds it's not funny.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Emil Weber

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2010, 09:31:50 AM »
Not much left to say...

George Pazin

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Re: Barnbougle Dunes - Hole by Hole
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2010, 02:14:43 PM »
Pete,

It's true they don't hit hit 3 woods to stay up - but they should. I would bet Tiger and Hogan would both lay it back on the top and take the 8 iron v the wedge.

That's very interesting. A looooooooooooong time ago, we had a discussion about Rustic Canyon where a lot of low single digit critics said they'd rather hit wedges from anywhere, any stance. The closest thing to a tour pro who commented - Jeff Fortson, sorry to see he hasn't been around on here, hopefully he is out playing somewhere - said he'd much rather have a flat stance with a 7 iron than an uncomfortable one with a wedge. Pretty telling.

Thanks for the terrific pic, Emil.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04