Notable Public Access Course List

[Tony Weiler]

Tony Weiler,
I don't agree with you on Sunridge Canyon.  I think it's a pretty good course.  When you say the design isn't very good and the layout is lacking, I'm not sure what you mean?  What aspects of the design?  There are too many houses on the course, but that's hardly rare in the area. It's been a few years since I played there, but I liked it as well as either Grayhawk course, Boulders, We-ko-pa Cholla, and so on.  I thought the green complexes there were pretty solid.

[/quote]

John, I have to think about this more.  I'm relatively new to posting on GCA, though long time lurker.  I have to say I've learned a lot about designs, routing, etc.  Also, how important is condition of the course.  When we played last April, we included GH Talon, both We Ko Pa, and Whirlwind Devil's Claw, and then SunRidge Canyon.  I was extremely disappointed by SRC.  I had read many good reviews, and actually anticipated enjoying it.  As I am the "booker" for out groups, I get a bad time if not a good course.   There isn't anyone I was with who would play SRC again over ANY of the others listed above.  The conditions were horrible.  Now, that may not be overly important, but to me on that trip it was.  I have to say that sometimes, I just "like" a course better than others, the architecture aside.  Kindof like why I prefer brunettes, over blondes.  No real or logical reason, I just do.  Now having said that, I also found SRC to be narrow in the landing areas, on about every hole.  I found it too enclosed by homes, even though that is way, way common in that area, and it lacked the shot values of other courses.  Maybe the greens are good, but everything else outweighed that. 

[Paul Jones]

I would add the following to Louisiana Courses:

Santa Maria - Baton Rouge - RTJ2
Audubon Golf Club - New Orleans - Dennis Griffiths
The Wetlands - Lafayette -
National Golf Club of LA - Westlake -
Tamaka Trails - Marksville - Steve Smyers

[Dan King]

Many, many years ago I had a "friend" who told me I should play at Pelican Hills Ocean while in SoCal. I took his advise and played there. I've never had the same relationship since then. I felt he was either screwing with me or he didn't know me very well to send me to such an overrated crapfest.

Cheers,
Dan King

By all means screw their women and drink their booze but never write one word about their bloody awful golf course.
  --Henry Longhurst (advise to a fellow journalist being pressed to make a trip to a new expensive golf development)

[Doug Ralston]

I would add 'The Harvester' by Keith Foster, and also if in condition, 'The Tennessean' by same.

Of course, I would always add Eagle Ridge {KY} by Hills/Forrest [and only $42 max, too}

Of the huge Michigan list I missed 'Eagle Eye' in Lansing and 'The Grande' in Jackson; and am waiting for more reaction to 'Sweetgrass'.

Doug

[Wyatt Halliday]

List Update.

Total count to date: 558 courses

It's good to see some ODG work appearing (Bendelow/Banks, Egan).

[Sven Nilsen]

Any chance we could include a price point for each course on the list?  Would make for some interesting discussions on value golf.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Sven,

Mike DeVries also mentioned this to me and that would seem to be be the next logical step to take in addition to crediting everyone for their submission.  The problem is having the time to mine the data. Something that I will have more of as of next week. It will probably utilize the ambiguous dollar sign symbol, because I don't want to get into the minutiae of twilight, super twilight, etc.

Wyatt

[Richard Choi]

Wyatt, all you have to do is just farm it out. I will be happy to do the Washington list, for example. You don't have to try to do this all by yourself.

It would probably be helpful to have the links to the website for each course as well.

Rich

[Sven Nilsen]

I'll take Illinois.

[Andy Troeger]

Wyatt,
It looks like you added French Lick to Iowa instead of Indiana.

Also Sultan's Run in Jasper (Tim Liddy) is better than most of the ones you have listed. I'm not sure about Quail Crossing--I've not played it but never had anyone suggest that I should.

Your New Mexico list looks about right to me. I probably wouldn't consider Rainmakers to be public--although they are accepting some outside play if you call and ask nicely. Perhaps they've gone public.

I would include SunRidge Canyon in AZ. I liked it as well or better than Talking Stick (North), Papago, Longbow, Southern Dunes, Troon North (Pinnacle), or Ventana Canyon (Canyon). I'd be more in advocation of adding SunRidge back than removing the others even if a couple of them don't fit my eye. The Rim in Payson is listed on GolfNow.com so perhaps they have gone public too--I had read an article that they were struggling.

In Tennessee, I'd add Bear Trace at Cumberland Mountain in Crossville TN (Nicklaus) and Stonehenge in Fairfield Glade (Joe Lee/Rocky Roquemore).

[Mike Bowline]

Wyatt, I suggest in CO you delete Buffalo Run, a boring, nothing, long waste of time. In its place, I suggest you add Keystone River Course (Hurdzan Fry).

In KS, I suggest you add Sycamore Ridge in KC (Baxter Spann) and Ironhorse in KC (Hurdzan Fry)

[Sean_A]

Prices may be hard to find this time of year for courses in the north. 

BTW Brae Burn is two words for the course in Michigan. 

Ciao

[Tim Pitner]

Wyatt, I suggest in CO you delete Buffalo Run, a boring, nothing, long waste of time. In its place, I suggest you add Keystone River Course (Hurdzan Fry).

Keystone Ranch (RTJ Jr.) is at least the equal of Keystone River.  Heritage at Westmoor (Hurzdan/Fry) is worthy of inclusion in the Denver area, in my view. 

I'm struggling where to draw the line.  Pole Creek (Griffiths) in Winter Park is worthy of play.  Green Valley Ranch (Perry Dye), while far from a favorite, is solid.  So too Fox Hollow (Griffiths).  Is there something like a minimum Doak rating we should consider?

French Lick's in Iowa?   I wish we could claim the Birdman (the original, not the current Nugget).

[Craig Sweet]

Montana...Canyon River...Missoula, MT  Curley/Schmidt design

and I think you can pay the greens fee and play the Ranch Club in Missoula...still.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I would add Deerfield in DE. It's a Gordon design and sometimes classified as a "Faux Flynn."

[Brad Wilbur]

For now, Reflection Bay and The Falls in the Las Vegas, Nevada area need to be removed.  They are closed, but when the political maneuvering between ownership groups is over, should re-open.

[Tony Weiler]

Wyatt,

I would include SunRidge Canyon in AZ. I liked it as well or better than Talking Stick (North), Papago, Longbow, Southern Dunes, Troon North (Pinnacle), or Ventana Canyon (Canyon). I'd be more in advocation of adding SunRidge back than removing the others even if a couple of them don't fit my eye. The Rim in Payson is listed on GolfNow.com so perhaps they have gone public too--I had read an article that they were struggling.

The love for SunRidge Canyon continues to blow me away.  I'd never play it again, yet two GCAers (at least) would recommend it.  I've told many people to stay away.  I detailed why earlier in this thread. 

[John Mayhugh]

I was extremely disappointed by SRC.  I had read many good reviews, and actually anticipated enjoying it.  As I am the "booker" for out groups, I get a bad time if not a good course.   There isn't anyone I was with who would play SRC again over ANY of the others listed above.  The conditions were horrible.  Now, that may not be overly important, but to me on that trip it was.  I have to say that sometimes, I just "like" a course better than others, the architecture aside.  Kindof like why I prefer brunettes, over blondes.  No real or logical reason, I just do.  Now having said that, I also found SRC to be narrow in the landing areas, on about every hole.  I found it too enclosed by homes, even though that is way, way common in that area, and it lacked the shot values of other courses.  Maybe the greens are good, but everything else outweighed that. 

Tony,
It's been a few years since I played Sunridge Canyon.  From my memory, there is enough movement in fairways and placement of hazards that you have to think your way around in terms of line off the tee and club selection, but I don't think Sunridge is narrow.  It's not the kind of place you can swing away with driver on every hole as fairways do narrow in some places, but this is to encourage decision making and risk taking more so than it is bad design. 

Not saying Sunridge is more than a Doak 5 or 6, but it's well above average for Scottsdale IMO.  I suspect the conditioning you encountered influenced your opinions on the architecture as well.  Of course conditioning matters.  My own experiences there have been fine.

[Tony Weiler]

John, perhaps you are correct.  The conditioning may have had too large an influence on me, and we usually pack in 36 a day, so that is a factor also.  I have my scorecard, and am going to go through the round again, to see whether I was too hard on SRC.  It really did get good reviews and that's why we played it, and the price was very fair for that area (except they gouged us for a really bad Sunday buffet, maybe that was it, too!!).  Anyway, thanks. 

[Greg Chambers]

Wyatt, I suggest in CO you delete Buffalo Run, a boring, nothing, long waste of time. In its place, I suggest you add Keystone River Course (Hurdzan Fry).

Keystone Ranch (RTJ Jr.) is at least the equal of Keystone River.  Heritage at Westmoor (Hurzdan/Fry) is worthy of inclusion in the Denver area, in my view.  

I'm struggling where to draw the line.  Pole Creek (Griffiths) in Winter Park is worthy of play.  Green Valley Ranch (Perry Dye), while far from a favorite, is solid.  So too Fox Hollow (Griffiths).  Is there something like a minimum Doak rating we should consider?

I have to agree w/Mike re Buffalo Run.  Just a boring track.  In it's place you could put in Green Valley Ranch or Black Bear GC (formerly Canterberry in Parker).  The Ranch course @ Keystone is a little better than the River IMO.  The River is a fun mountain course, but there are some holes that are just plain goofy.
French Lick's in Iowa?  I wish we could claim the Birdman (the original, not the current Nugget).

[Jason McNamara]

Great list, Wyatt.

Now, if you and Rob can get together and incorporate Rob's walkability info into your list, then you're really on to something.

[Tim Leahy]

Wyatt, I suggest in CO you delete Buffalo Run, a boring, nothing, long waste of time. In its place, I suggest you add Keystone River Course (Hurdzan Fry).

Keystone Ranch (RTJ Jr.) is at least the equal of Keystone River.  Heritage at Westmoor (Hurzdan/Fry) is worthy of inclusion in the Denver area, in my view. 

I'm struggling where to draw the line.  Pole Creek (Griffiths) in Winter Park is worthy of play.  Green Valley Ranch (Perry Dye), while far from a favorite, is solid.  So too Fox Hollow (Griffiths).  Is there something like a minimum Doak rating we should consider?

French Lick's in Iowa?   I wish we could claim the Birdman (the original, not the current Nugget).

I will second your Westmoor and Pole Creek choices enjoying them both on trips to Colorado. I would add Marianna Butte in Loveland(Richard M. Phelps) east of Fort Collins.

Also in California just outside of Sacramento I would add Yoche De He(Brad Bell) at the Cache Creek Indian resevation.

[Sean_A]

I was extremely disappointed by SRC.  I had read many good reviews, and actually anticipated enjoying it.  As I am the "booker" for out groups, I get a bad time if not a good course.   There isn't anyone I was with who would play SRC again over ANY of the others listed above.  The conditions were horrible.  Now, that may not be overly important, but to me on that trip it was.  I have to say that sometimes, I just "like" a course better than others, the architecture aside.  Kindof like why I prefer brunettes, over blondes.  No real or logical reason, I just do.  Now having said that, I also found SRC to be narrow in the landing areas, on about every hole.  I found it too enclosed by homes, even though that is way, way common in that area, and it lacked the shot values of other courses.  Maybe the greens are good, but everything else outweighed that.  

Tony,
It's been a few years since I played Sunridge Canyon.  From my memory, there is enough movement in fairways and placement of hazards that you have to think your way around in terms of line off the tee and club selection, but I don't think Sunridge is narrow.  It's not the kind of place you can swing away with driver on every hole as fairways do narrow in some places, but this is to encourage decision making and risk taking more so than it is bad design.  

Not saying Sunridge is more than a Doak 5 or 6, but it's well above average for Scottsdale IMO.  I suspect the conditioning you encountered influenced your opinions on the architecture as well.  Of course conditioning matters.  My own experiences there have been fine.

Woh, if we are talking Doaker 5-6 then I would withdraw all of the courses I mentioned - including Southern Pines.  The courses I mentioned are more like a Doaker 3-4, maybe 5, but not expensive (Westfields SP break this mould though) and all have a handful of very good holes.  The courses should in no way disappoint for the money and one should only play them if in the area without a better game lined up.

A Doak 5/6 is really quite a good course, the sort of quality I would be happy to play every week and FAR better than the average course.  Jeepers, I am looking at courses like Cavendish and Beau Desert  being 6s and they blow the courses I listed (and several others) away.  

Ciao

[Richard Choi]

Perhaps we should have a system where someone nominates a course and at least 2 other GCA'er has to second that nomination for it to be included in the list.

[John Mayhugh]

John, perhaps you are correct.  The conditioning may have had too large an influence on me, and we usually pack in 36 a day, so that is a factor also.  I have my scorecard, and am going to go through the round again, to see whether I was too hard on SRC.  It really did get good reviews and that's why we played it, and the price was very fair for that area (except they gouged us for a really bad Sunday buffet, maybe that was it, too!!).  Anyway, thanks. 

Tony,
You must have been a tough spot with your buddies - picking a course and then it being in poor condition.  I've given up suggesting courses to my non-GCA friends after that happened to me a couple of times.  I got play what I wanted, but it wasn't worth it!


Sean,
A Doak 5 is "a good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game."  A Doak 6 "shouldn't disappoint you" but "not worth a special trip to see."    I'm pretty sure my Doak scale is different from Doak's (he's seen a couple more courses than I have), but I think Sunridge fits the 5 category for me just fine.