Notable Public Access Course List

[noonan]

Correction:

You have the French Lick courses listed in Iowa.
They are located in Indiana.

[Andy Troeger]

John, perhaps you are correct.  The conditioning may have had too large an influence on me, and we usually pack in 36 a day, so that is a factor also.  I have my scorecard, and am going to go through the round again, to see whether I was too hard on SRC.  It really did get good reviews and that's why we played it, and the price was very fair for that area (except they gouged us for a really bad Sunday buffet, maybe that was it, too!!).  Anyway, thanks. 

The conditions were fine when I was there--pretty good all things considered. Its a bummer when you pay a lot of money to play a course during a poor period. I agree that the houses are too close in spots, but not about the narrowness of the fairways. I tend to look for that and didn't notice it at SunRidge. I would agree with John that its about a Doak 5. Its not my favorite course in the area by any means, but one could do a lot worse.

[Sean_A]

John, perhaps you are correct.  The conditioning may have had too large an influence on me, and we usually pack in 36 a day, so that is a factor also.  I have my scorecard, and am going to go through the round again, to see whether I was too hard on SRC.  It really did get good reviews and that's why we played it, and the price was very fair for that area (except they gouged us for a really bad Sunday buffet, maybe that was it, too!!).  Anyway, thanks. 

Tony,
You must have been a tough spot with your buddies - picking a course and then it being in poor condition.  I've given up suggesting courses to my non-GCA friends after that happened to me a couple of times.  I got play what I wanted, but it wasn't worth it!


Sean,
A Doak 5 is "a good course to choose if you're in the vicinity and looking for a game."  A Doak 6 "shouldn't disappoint you" but "not worth a special trip to see."    I'm pretty sure my Doak scale is different from Doak's (he's seen a couple more courses than I have), but I think Sunridge fits the 5 category for me just fine.

John

I am making no judgement on your opinion of Sundridge.  I am however, making a judgement on the courses I mentioned. 

Ciao

[Stewart Abramson]

That's a pretty comprehensive list. As with others, I'm not sure what the critera are. There are a bunch of courses on the list that get lots of criticism on this site. I've played 102 courses on the list and most of those I'd keep on. A few posts mention Augustine, which I don't see on the list. There are others I would have deleted before Augustine.

I think Reflection Bay and the Falls have closed.

Wild Dunes is not in Myrtle Beach. It's near Charleston

There is nothing listed in NY between NYC and Albany. Courses to consider adding in that region are Centennial, Links at Unionvale, Spook Rock, Patriot Hills (altough unwalkable) and Grossinger's Big G. Haven't played Pound Ridge yet.

At the risk of getting mocked, I'll suggest a few others for consideration:

CO - (Denver area) Green Valley Ranch
CT - (Danbury) Richter Park
FL - (Orlando area) El Campeon, Orange County National Panther Lake, Osprey Ridge @ Disney, Harmony Preserve, Timacuan
MI (Detroit area) Moose Ridge, the Majestic
NV (LV area) The Chase@ Coyote Ridge, Paiute Snow Mtn (not significantly different than Sun Mtn, which is on the list)
NJ - Hominy Hill, Howell Park
NC - (Myrtle Beach area) Leopards Chase, Oyster Bay
TX - (Houston) Tradition@ Cypresswood
VA - Augustine, Hunting Hawk, Stonewall
CA - (LA  area) Angeles National, Lost Canyons,  (OC area) Coyote Hills

[Cliff Hamm]

Hominy Hill (Robert Trent Jones, I believe) in NJ certainly belongs on the list....

My criteria is simple.  It is similar to the numerous threads about "I'll be in ____ for a few days.  Where should I play?"  That is my simple criteria.  Is the course worthy of recommending to someone who is knowledgeable about architecture?  If so I would include it, if not no.

[Peter Pratt]

For Michigan, Wyatt, I'd cut Faulkwood Shores and add College Fields (David Savic/Tom Mead) in Okemos (next to East Lansing). It's a quirky track that--aside from some too-tight tee shots on the back nine--has some great holes and greens complexes. Also consider Yarrow, a Ray Hearn design in Augusta (near Kalamazoo). And I'd hate to lose High Pointe!!!! I haven't played Sweetgrass (Harris in the UP), but it's getting some props in the national magazines as a best new/casino course.

[Jud_T]

Wyatt,

Others may disagree, but I'd dump Barefoot Love in South Carolina.  We thought it was overrated, not in great condition, and very unforgiving in the wind....

[astavrides]

.

[Chris_Blakely]

isn't this what golf digest, golf magazine, and golfweek's best places to play in state lists are for? 

Yes, but too oftern they completly fail at achieving that goal.  Take golfweek's Ohio list as one quick example and there are numerous other ones.

Chris

[Richard Choi]

Seconded! I trust the opinions of the folks here over any magazine list.

[Mike Tanner]

Wyatt,
I think the idea for this thread is great, especially if it becomes a one-stop reference for the "I'm visiting, where should I play?" question.

A couple of years ago I went to Tampa to attend my nephew's wedding and had one day to play golf. I posted on the DG about a public access Donald Ross course and was advised to get a tee time at Dunedin.

Except for freezing my butt off in the morning (temps in the low 40s in January) because all I packed for golf were short pants, I really enjoyed my round there.

I can see a lot benefits from this new resource.

[Alex Miller]

That's a pretty comprehensive list. As with others, I'm not sure what the critera are. There are a bunch of courses on the list that get lots of criticism on this site. I've played 102 courses on the list and most of those I'd keep on. A few posts mention Augustine, which I don't see on the list. There are others I would have deleted before Augustine.

I think Reflection Bay and the Falls have closed.

Wild Dunes is not in Myrtle Beach. It's near Charleston

There is nothing listed in NY between NYC and Albany. Courses to consider adding in that region are Centennial, Links at Unionvale, Spook Rock, Patriot Hills (altough unwalkable) and Grossinger's Big G. Haven't played Pound Ridge yet.

At the risk of getting mocked, I'll suggest a few others for consideration:

CO - (Denver area) Green Valley Ranch
CT - (Danbury) Richter Park
FL - (Orlando area) El Campeon, Orange County National Panther Lake, Osprey Ridge @ Disney, Harmony Preserve, Timacuan
MI (Detroit area) Moose Ridge, the Majestic
NV (LV area) The Chase@ Coyote Ridge, Paiute Snow Mtn (not significantly different than Sun Mtn, which is on the list)
NJ - Hominy Hill, Howell Park
NC - (Myrtle Beach area) Leopards Chase, Oyster Bay
TX - (Houston) Tradition@ Cypresswood
VA - Augustine, Hunting Hawk, Stonewall
CA - (LA  area) Angeles National, Lost Canyons,  (OC area) Coyote Hills

I'll try not to mock but....

Coyote Hills is overpriced and under-impressive. Black Gold in Yorba Linda is a better course, and still should not be on this list. While, I like Lost Canyons very much, I don't know if it's worth having if Rustic Canyon is 10-15 min. away. Angeles National is very good. I would also add Robinson Ranch (Valley Course) to the list. It's rarely available for public play, but definitely possible and one of my favorites.

[Wyatt Halliday]

List updated.

I somewhat agree with the comments regarding Buffalo Run. However, it has at least as much architectural interest as GVR so an inclusion of GVR keeps Buffalo Run on as well. Black Bear will be included. However, if anyone mentions Heritage at Eagle Bend I will discard anything they nominate.

Brad W.,
Please keep me posted on RB and The Falls.

Jason M.,
As previously stated, this project could dovetail into numerous things. I'm trying to work something out where this provides the general outline and then it is expanded externally (with a provided link). I do not wish to clog an entire page of the discussion group with spin-offs or eat up more of Ran's space than necessary. I'm sure some would argue that I'm already doing that.


Who knew Sunrdige Canyon would generate this amount of discussion. I think I want to play it now just to decide for myself.

Cheers

[Alex Miller]

Did you get Angeles National, Sunland, CA and Robinson Ranch, Santa Clarita, CA?

[Jud_T]

 

[Cory Lewis]

I would add White Clay Creek to Delaware, Mountain Branch to Maryland, Tanglewood Park(Champions) to NC, Bedford Springs & Jack Frost National to PA, Bull Run, Poplar Grove, & Spring Creek to VA, the Jones course at Speidel to WV.

[Dave Taylor]

I really do think you need to remove Annapolis GC from your MD list. Whatever historical architectural signifigance it may hold it is without a doubt the worst maintained and conditioned course I have ever played.

[Andy Troeger]

isn't this what golf digest, golf magazine, and golfweek's best places to play in state lists are for? 

Yes, but too oftern they completly fail at achieving that goal.  Take golfweek's Ohio list as one quick example and there are numerous other ones.

Chris

I haven't by any means studied this, but in the states I'm familiar with we're essentially coming up with a similar list to the magazines. The biggest difference is that we're not trying to put them in order. If you look at the magazine lists, most of the time the right courses are there, its just the order that causes debate. These lists are also a bit more comprehensive and include more quantity of courses. It reminds me more though of the goal behind the old "Places to Play" book that Golf Digest put out using ratings from regular golfers. Unfortunately, the star ratings got so inflated over time that the truly great courses became indistinguishable from the rest. It does make a good starting place for traveling, however.

Wyatt,
One more addition for New Mexico: Sierra del Rio (Dick Phelps) in Elephant Butte.

[Sean_A]

I really do think you need to remove Annapolis GC from your MD list. Whatever historical architectural signifigance it may hold it is without a doubt the worst maintained and conditioned course I have ever played.

Dave

If this is the case I am greatly saddened.  The course was certainly rough n ready when I played it, but the design shined through.  It was also cheap as chips - an aspect of these sorts of lists which is often over-looked.  I don't think any of the Michigan courses I listed approach $50 and if they do, I would ignore my own advice.  I know that I am not keen to pay a $50-$60 green fee for just another no name run of the mill public course which can be had in practically any location in the US.  

http://michigan.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/lesliepark.html  $25-$30 top whack to walk

http://michigan.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/braeburn.html  $25-$30 top whack to walk

Huron Hills $20-$25 top whack to walk (really cool and funky back nine)

Annapolis $10 top whack to walk (9 holes)

New Rogell $25 top whack to walk  

I forgot about Cascades in Jackson - another Bendelow design  http://www.cascadesgolfcourse.com/  $25-$30 top whack to walk

Ciao

[Steve Strasheim]

Good resource thread.

I pretty much agree on the courses I'm familiar with.

Looking at the possibility of OKC instead of the Ozarks in late March.

[John Moore II]

For Idaho I'd add Pinecrest in Idaho Falls if you are going to be in the Idaho Falls area; its a long ways from IF to any of the courses you list. Its the best course in that area by a good margin I think.

Also, for North Carolina...

[Tom Yost]

Thanks Wyatt, for taking the lead with this...

I would like to offer some comments from an Arizona resident.

One minor correction:
 The Wigwam is located in Litchfield Park (west Phoenix)

Two courses I would nominate for inclusion:
- The Raven at Verrado;  Buckeye AZ (2004; Fought/Lehman)
- Los Caballeros; Wickenburg AZ (1981; Hardin/Nash)

I liked SunRidge Canyon but it has been many years since I was out there.  Played it three times when it first opened before houses and remember it being interesting.

The Maricopa County muni Estrella Mountain is an interesting inclusion.  It offers a great value ($30 high season) but is a fairly basic 60's vintage course that is much need of a renovation.  Some potential there with a bit of movement on the property and a walkable core routing.  On a recent play, I challenged myself to see if I could discern any similarities with Desert Forest.  Not much (other than the lack of any fairway bunkering). The bunkers are overgrown and shrunk to perhaps 50% of original size as are the greens. Some major tree work is needed not to mention turf renovation. 

As for the Raven at S. Mountain - this course seems to draw universal praise from residents and tourists, but I find it to be unremarkable in every sense.  The "oasis in the desert" pine tree motif does not work for me, the holes are formulaic and the course is perpetually kept in a soggy state.

There is a course on that list that shouldn't be recommended to anyone and that is The Canyon course at Ventana.  An awful layout cobbled together with far flung pieces of property connected by 1/2 mile long cart rides.

[Matthew Petersen]

Thanks Wyatt, for taking the lead with this...

I would like to offer some comments from an Arizona resident.

One minor correction:
 The Wigwam is located in Litchfield Park (west Phoenix)

Two courses I would nominate for inclusion:
- The Raven at Verrado;  Buckeye AZ (2004; Fought/Lehman)
- Los Caballeros; Wickenburg AZ (1981; Hardin/Nash)

I liked SunRidge Canyon but it has been many years since I was out there.  Played it three times when it first opened before houses and remember it being interesting.

The Maricopa County muni Estrella Mountain is an interesting inclusion.  It offers a great value ($30 high season) but is a fairly basic 60's vintage course that is much need of a renovation.  Some potential there with a bit of movement on the property and a walkable core routing.  On a recent play, I challenged myself to see if I could discern any similarities with Desert Forest.  Not much (other than the lack of any fairway bunkering). The bunkers are overgrown and shrunk to perhaps 50% of original size as are the greens. Some major tree work is needed not to mention turf renovation. 

As for the Raven at S. Mountain - this course seems to draw universal praise from residents and tourists, but I find it to be unremarkable in every sense.  The "oasis in the desert" pine tree motif does not work for me, the holes are formulaic and the course is perpetually kept in a soggy state.

There is a course on that list that shouldn't be recommended to anyone and that is The Canyon course at Ventana.  An awful layout cobbled together with far flung pieces of property connected by 1/2 mile long cart rides.

I com pletely agree with you assessments of Ventana's Canyon course and the South Mountain Raven. There's hardly one interesting hole at the Raven, and the whole thing just feels like a bad idea. They pioneered some of the now common top notch services you expect on high end dailies in this area (mango towels, etc.) but that's not much of a reason to rate the course highly.

At least the Canyon course has some good holes. But as a course it's pretty ugly. A miserable first nine on the low side of the mountain, then a long drive up to the back nine where many of the holes are far away from each other.

[Adam Clayman]

Wyatt, Wilderness should be removed from the Nebraska list. A glorified housing course, albeit with excellent conditioning and a PGM program. However, it's the cart rides between neighborhoods which is too much of a disappointment to make the course noteworthy.

One replacement might be Lake Maloney. More so for gca-o-philes that want to see something remarkable for $20.

[Bob Jenkins]

In Washington state, there are two public access courses near Bellingham which could be added to your list. One is Shuksan Golf Course,  www.shuksangolf.com  which is worth a game if you are in the area and lots of fun. From the website I could not determine who designed the course. The other course in the same area is North Bellingham, which is described as a links type course. It really isn't but it is quite wide open, built in a farming area and without the usual thousands of trees we get in this part of the world. Architect was Ted Locke. www.northbellinghamgolf.com 

Regarding Semiahmoo and Loomis Trail, both are actually in Blaine, Wa. and I agree with Dale that they are much closer to Vancouver than Seattle.