[JohnV]

John, in all the matches/tournaments you've officiated, have you come across any cheating by the players?  If so, can you tell us more about it?  No provable instances of cheating in my experience, but I've heard stories from others.

Second, do you think slope is more useful to golfers than bogey rating?  I think Bogey Rating might be a better choice because it contrasts it with Course Rating and players might not be so quick to evaluate a course just on slope.

Third, any USGA or R&A rules of golf you think should be changed?   Rule 14-3 is getting way to complicated with all the new stuff out there.  Rule 12-1 is odd because of the way you get penalized outside a hazard for something you can do inside one.  I think both of those might be reworked for 2012 if they can agree on them changes.

Thanks!

[JohnV]

How many people get 100% on a USGA Rules Exam?
[Last year 4 out of about 1500.  I was fortunate enough to be one.  Of course, the real experts like John Morrissett don't take it, they write it.  Getting 100 frequently means you don't make a dumb mistake in miscounting the number of strokes on a tricky question.  I've gotten 99 at least twice by doing that.

How many people do it more than one?
Don't know, but there are a few.

How many times have you done it?
Three 100s.  I've averaged 99 in the 8 times I've gone between 2000 and 2009. I always want to get 50 on the closed book as that means I know the basics.  I think I'm 399 out of 400 the last 8 times and the one I missed was when I couldn't remember if something was a one-stroke or two-stroke penalty.  I guessed 1 and was wrong.  But, they changed it in 2004 so I'd have been right now .

Rules geek showdown - who wins you or John Morrisett?
John.  It wouldn't even be close.  He has so much more knowledge than me its crazy.  I love it when I can make him sweat a little.  I sent him a question last month.  It took about 4 weeks for an answer and he started the answer with, “I’m sorry to take so long, but every time I think about this question I want to go think about something else.”  That was a major victory in my mind.

How close would it be?

[JohnV]

John,

I really enjoy reading your course review on Hannastown.  I've played it a few times and it's one of my favorite courses in the area.
Thanks

How did you end up being a member at Hannastown CC in Greensburg?
When I moved to Pittsburgh and started working for the WPGA, I noticed that Hannastown had more good players in our tournaments than any course other than Oakmont.  That told me it was probably good.  When I saw it, I loved the mix of old and new holes.  Plus, I could afford it on the small salary the WPGA was paying me.

What is your favorite hole on the course?
#2 - I don't know if Loeffler was copying a "short" like the one at Fox Chapel, but he got the distance right and the bunkering along with the threat of going long and being 40 yards over the green in a heartbeat make it fun.
What other courses in the Greensburg area did you enjoy?
I didn't really see many of the courses in Greensburg.  Totteridge was too damn hard for most of us when the rough was up.  Never played Greensburg CC or Mt. Odin.  Latrobe had too many trees.

[JohnV]

Third, any USGA or R&A rules of golf you think should be changed? 

Playing with JohnV is a treat.
His blog is outstanding - as is the name.
http://freedrop.wordpress.com/

I am looking forward to your answer to the above question.
When was the last time you broke a rule in a non-competition? and what rule was it?
Broke a rule? Does that count hitting it OB?   I've picked up on holes in non-competitive situations or dropped balls in the area I lost them rather than go back to the tee.  I don't to play Lift, Clean and Cheat even when others do in casual competitions
Has Shivas seen the picture from your blog? No comments from him yet.

[JohnV]

I think I know the answer to one of these...

John:

What's the most difficult kind of ruling you have to make? Or are they all easy and straighforward?

The judgement calls on whether a ball is ground under repair when it isn't marked or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball is lost in a hazard.  Sometimes your gut tells you it is in the hazard, but you can't apply the standard of "virtually certain".  Tough to tell a player that.

[JohnV]

Favorite course and holes at Bandon.Bandon Trails, but I haven’t played Old Mac yet.
Holes: Bandon Dunes – 7, 10, 13, 14.  Pacific Dunes: 3, 6, 11, 13 and 16 (just because I drove the green once).  Bandon Trails – 3, 4, 5, 8, 11, 13, 15
Best golf trip.The next one.  Any time I go to Bandon, Scotland or Ireland are right there.  Do I have to pick courses?  Trip I most want to make?  Australia and NZ
Could the Pumpkin Ridge composite course get a US Open, or has Chambers Bay killed that off.I doubt it, but I still like my composite course the best (GC 1-6, WH 6-11, 3-5, GC 7-9)  About 7400 yards par 74 on the card, but I know they could call WH 4 and GC 8 par 4s for fun.
Any other First Tee outings you can recommend. Oakmont was killer. That was really a West Penn Scholarship outing that we decided to share with the First Tee.  Don’t know of any others

[JohnV]

Any other First Tee outings you can recommend. Oakmont was killer.

Like a number of us, I owe John a big thank you for letting us know about that one.

Just a couple of questions:

1. When you get a chance to play, where do you go other than Poppy Hills?Anywhere I get comped .  I only played 24 rounds last year, but they were a good mix from Bandon to SF Club to Spyglass.  I keep meaning to get up to Pajaro for the weekend games with Pete, but I haven't been playing at all so I figure I'd be wasting my money going there and losing.

2.  Which is worse in an unfavorable (for the player) ruling, tears or yelling?Neither are fun.  Yelling is worse since it doesn't stop.  Tears only really make you feel bad if you think the player got a raw deal

3.  How many out of state NCGA members are there?  Great benefits if you're traveling to the area.Not Sure, but I think it was around 1K last year

[JohnV]

Hi John, its been a long time - no see.  I hope to remedy that some time soon. Definitely too long.  Sorry you couldn’t get down to Milwaukee for the mid-am in ‘08

My question is how will the new V groove rules be inspected and enforced?  Anotherwords, are each player's irons observed or measured with a tool, periodically; or before each competition?  If there is a tool, is it the same procedure as they measure curves on hockey sticks where a ref can do it on the spot?  Or, will grooves only be inspected or examined when a ball action on an approach to a green looks suspicious?  Is it posible that after an inspection, grooves can be imperceptably altered and will re-examination be on a complaint basis, or random like drug tests?  I'd have a hard time believing players that get into serious tour or nationwide levels, would try any funny business.  But then again, there have been vague remarks by some players about other issues of unfair competitive advantage that have been concerning from time to time.

As far as I know, there won’t be any onsite testing, with the possible exception of a US Open or the like.  The USGA has put together a database of conforming clubs which can be found http://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/intro.html
If a club is not on that list as approved or unapproved, it might or might not be conforming.  A player who uses one is taking a risk that it would be found to be non-conforming.  If someone brings it up, it could be sent to the USGA for testing.
In general, it is up to the players to police themselves just as they do with balls and other equipment.
Also, remember that this rule is really only to be used for the top professional tournaments for the next 4 years.  As such, most players will have received equipment from manufacturers that is conforming.
Would players try any funny business?  Well, players have tried it before by filing grooves or putting Vaseline on their clubs so I suppose they might, but the cost of getting caught is so high these days it really isn’t worth it.

[JohnV]

John -

When are you planning to next visit Dornoch?

DT

I had hoped to go there after the Mid-Am on Long Island this fall, but I've got tournaments on both sides of it so there is no time.  I'm saving up vacation to make it a long enough trip to make it worthwhile flying all that way.  Now I just have to find the time.

[JohnV]

Guess I gotta remind John. Sorry, folks, sometimes things don't always go as planned. Your patience will be rewarded, I'm sure.

Unfair, it is three hours earlier here on the west coast.

[JohnV]

John:

Thanks for playing.

What percentage of PGA Tour players do you surmise know the rules as well as they should?
0%.  But they do know how to ask for a rules official.  They are so scared of making a mistake, but if a rules official makes one, they are off the hook.  Tiger probably has the best knowledge, how many others would have thought to ask if they could move that rock in Phoenix?  Some others are good, but they don't really want to think about it.  Tom Meeks said he could save the average player 8 shots a year by being his caddie.  Think about how much money that could be.

Which rule(s) would you guess is/are broken more than any other on Tour?  How about on Saturday mornings at the typical club?
Tour - Pace of Play!  Otherwise, probably taking a ball out of play when it really doesn't meet the definition of cut, cracked or visibily out of round.   Saturdays - Here was my answer from before http://freedrop.wordpress.com/longer-articles/top-10-mistakes-i-see-players-make/


WW

[Dale Jackson]

John:

Thanks for playing.

What percentage of PGA Tour players do you surmise know the rules as well as they should?
0%.  But they do know how to ask for a rules official.  Tiger probably has the best knowledge.  Some others are good, but they don't really want to think about it.  Tom Meeks said he could save the average player 8 shots a year by being his caddie.  Think about how much money that could be.

Which rule(s) would you guess is/are broken more than any other on Tour?  How about on Saturday mornings at the typical club?
Tour - Pace of Play!  Otherwise, probably taking a ball out of play when it really doesn't meet the definition of cut, cracked or visibily out of round.   Saturdays - Here was my answer from before http://freedrop.wordpress.com/longer-articles/top-10-mistakes-i-see-players-make/


WW

John, not to thread jack but I have been reviewing rules videos for a project and I am impressed by Padraig Harrington's knowledge, he really knows the right questions to ask.  Annika is (was) very good, and Hillary Lumke actually attended a USGA seminar, not sure how she did or if she write the exam.

[JohnV]

Dale,

Annika's problem was that she wouldn't accept the ruling from officials who knew better.  She wouldn't stop arguing about something when the official was correct.  See the ruling at the US Women's Open at Pumpkin Ridge and another one in the desert a couple of years later.  In both cases the official was correct, but, especially in the second one, she wouldn't stop arguing.  She thought she knew better.

Paddy is probably also one of the better ones out there.  I haven't seen anything with Lunke.

[JohnV]

Your opinion (and not merely what the rules say):  should the cheater line be legal or not?  Why?

I wondered when you'd chime in.  

Yes, I do think it should be legal.

As long as the ball can be lifted, it would be impossible to have a rule where it would have to be replaced in exactly the same orientation as it was before.  Then I have to study the orientation before I lift the ball to make sure it gets back in the same orientation.  If there was mud or something on the ball so I couldn’t see the orientation when I lifted it, I’d have a hard time getting it back the same way.  If the ball has any marking on it, whether put there by the player or the manufacturer, it is too fine a line to enforce any rule as to positioning.

Say the rule said you couldn't put the ball down where the line pointed along the line of play.  A player could put it down with the line at 90 degrees to the line of play so that he lined up his clubface to the line instead.  What about a ball with a + sign on it or the "V" that is printed on Calloway's ball or the V that I put on my ball directly below the number to identify it.  I don’t need a line when I have a pointer.  Neither of the two lines in the V point down my line.  Tell me I can’t have the point pointing there and I can put it the other way around so that the open end points there.  Still works.

And, of course, all ball markers would have to round and blank.

So, the only way to enforce such a rule would be to say that there can be no markings whatsoever on the ball or that it can never be lifted, neither of which are practicable (as the rules like to say).

If the issue is one of pace of play, that should be enforced, not this.  If it is somehow giving a player an advantage in putting the ball, he still has to read the putt correctly and hit it correctly.

[Dale Jackson]

Dale,

Annika's problem was that she wouldn't accept the ruling from officials who knew better.  She wouldn't stop arguing about something when the official was correct.  See the ruling at the US Women's Open at Pumpkin Ridge and another one in the desert a couple of years later.  In both cases the official was correct, but, especially in the second one, she wouldn't stop arguing.  She thought she knew better.

Paddy is probably also one of the better ones out there.  I haven't seen anything with Lunke.

Yup, I agree, especially with Kendra and Pumpkin Ridge.  The other one, I think, was after the change to TIOs that require line of sight and line of play and I could understand her confusion.

[JohnV]

Dale,

Annika's problem was that she wouldn't accept the ruling from officials who knew better.  She wouldn't stop arguing about something when the official was correct.  See the ruling at the US Women's Open at Pumpkin Ridge and another one in the desert a couple of years later.  In both cases the official was correct, but, especially in the second one, she wouldn't stop arguing.  She thought she knew better.

Paddy is probably also one of the better ones out there.  I haven't seen anything with Lunke.

Yup, I agree, especially with Kendra and Pumpkin Ridge.  The other one, I think, was after the change to TIOs that require line of sight and line of play and I could understand her confusion.

Dale,
I can understand that she might have been confused, but to argue repeatedly with the rules official was what put me over the edge regarding her.  She kept saying that it wasn’t fair because she couldn’t play the shot she wanted to play, not that the ruling was wrong.  I can’t remember if it was Robert O or someone else, but I think he kept saying, “Annika, the Rule is the Rule!” 

[RJ_Daley]

Geez Dave, can we extrapolate that your never ending quest could only exist as a theory of a rule enforcement, in a world void of practical reality?  Is that the condition you need to give up this ghost?   

[Bill_McBride]

John, can you take yourself out of the "rules guy" mindset of practical enforcement and answer this question as a golf theorist, i.e., assuming all practical realities could be eliminated, should the cheater line be legal?

This is even worse to me because it adds even more time to the agony.

[JohnV]

John, can you take yourself out of the "rules guy" mindset of practical enforcement and answer this question as a golf theorist, i.e., assuming all practical realities could be eliminated, should the cheater line be legal?

Not really.  Why write a law that can't be enforced?

But, since you ask, theoretically, I have no problem with lines on the ball.  Theoretically, I don't have a problem with putting a water bottle on the opposite side of the hole to aim at, but the rules don't allow that.  In the end, it all comes down to the stroke, the vagaries of the ground the ball is rolling over on the green or the winds as it flies through the air.  Don’t mess with those and I really don’t care.

In general, the rules are simply lines drawn in the sand that the ruling bodies think are important.  If I want to play the game, I live by the rules they make.  But, if I have to live by them, I want the powers to consider the practical enforcement issues in writing them.

There are hundreds of arbitrary choices and decisions in the rules.   Why can a ball roll up to two club-lengths after it is dropped?  Why not one?   Why can I ask you how far it is to the hole, but not what club you’re going to hit?  These are all decisions made the Rules of Golf Committee.  In most cases I am fine with them.  If I ever get on the Committee I might lobby for some changes.

[JohnV]

Bill, I agree that I don't like that thing, and that is entirely from the practical point of view of slowing down play.  But, as I understand it, you aren't supposed to move the marker,  instead you are supposed to line your ball up with whichever line points you where you want to go.  It might actually be faster if it is used in that fashion than lining the ball up at something in the distance.

In other words, put that marker down, lift your ball and figure out that I want to go in the direction of the third mark on the left, put the ball down with the "cheater line" lined up with that line, lift the marker and go.  Might be quicker than lining up the line with some spot of grass 20 feet in front of me.

[Bill_McBride]

John, on a scale of 1-10, how happy are you to be living in the Monterey area?  

I attended a Byron Nelson a few years ago in Dallas at the TPC Las Collinas course.  There is a long par 4 there with a lateral hazard all down the right side.  One of the players knocked a tee shot way out to the right into the hazard.  It took the players. all 3 of them, and the PGA rules guy at least 20 minutes to figure out where the culprit should drop.  He was arguing the ball crossed the margin of the hazard at least 30 yards farther than the other guys thought it did, and they were all adamant!

How do you handle that situation?  It was pretty ugly!

[Garland Bayley]

John,

Did featheries have cheater lines?

[Anthony Gray]

  John,

  What rule/rules would you like to see amended?

  What rule/rules would you like added?

  How do you pronounce that french desert at Fandango?

  Do the squirles at Carmel bite?

  Thanks.......Anthony

[Pete_Pittock]

John,
There were some early questions left unanswered, and I'd like to get this off thee cheater line (geesh, can't they post on their own thread rather than hi-jack this one)

Your job at NCGA is starting up and adminstering a junior tournament program. How is that going?

[Michael Blake]

John,  

Do you have any good dirt on the 'other' John, the brother of The Most Beloved Figure in Golf?

Do you get to play much?

Love your website/blog.

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