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George_Bahto

Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« on: January 17, 2010, 10:35:04 PM »
What do our tree-house dwellers think of how the pros are adapting to the new groove rule.

It is interesting to watch their short iron play to greens now and how the ball reacts.

Do you think they will change the wedge yardage they "lay up" to?

Your thoughts:
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

mike_beene

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 10:52:25 PM »
I find it a lot more interesting.As the week went there were more fairway woods off the tee. I think we will see more people avoiding 50 yards.Also,I know this was a nice firm setup and some clay in bunkers,but I got the impression it was harder to hit the little spinners.Maybe some young guys are going to have to learn that little move your right hand real weak short bunker shot to stop it.

Adam Clayman

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 11:01:10 PM »
George,

The aspect I find discussion worthy is the players who are attempting to circumvent the new rule by searching Ebay (and their garages) for Ping clubs built prior to April 1990.

As for the difference in ball control for those that use the new wedges, It appears to be minimal.

The new groove rule seems like a lame reaction, by the rules makers, to the characteristics of the new I&B.

The only possible good that could be construed from this new rule is a possible recognition, by the rules makers, that there is a problem and that problem is emanating from the equipment.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 11:04:29 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jerry Kluger

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 11:14:21 PM »
It was mentioned that the old Ping wedges from a bunch of years ago were grandfathered in and some players were using them.  The rule does apply to I believe under 24 degrees so it is far more interesting to see how clubs such as a 6 or 7 iron now play in anything other than a perfect lie.  Let's see what happens when they come to a firm course.

Tony Ristola

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 12:25:28 AM »
As the R&A didn't sign onto the agreement, I wonder how the PING guys using old wedges will fair with overseas tournaments.

.

jeffwarne

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 11:22:55 AM »
I find it a lot more interesting.As the week went there were more fairway woods off the tee. I think we will see more people avoiding 50 yards.Also,I know this was a nice firm setup and some clay in bunkers,but I got the impression it was harder to hit the little spinners.Maybe some young guys are going to have to learn that little move your right hand real weak short bunker shot to stop it.

Grooves mean nothing in a bunker as there's no contact with the ball.
They only mean something on a wet or grassy lie(grooves giving the water someplace to go), and even that is only slight, and certainly somewhat judgeable.

Much ado about nothing, but grooves were getting a bit out of hand-with players constantly replacing to keep sharp grooves
My wedges are 20+ years old and frankly I don't enjoy spinning shorter pitches and chips as I find it harder to judge the spin than the release.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 11:25:15 AM »
...

As for the difference in ball control for those that use the new wedges, It appears to be minimal.
...

I saw a little bit of the Sony on Thurs. Players hitting their wedges from the fairway appeared to get the accustomed bite on the ball. However, when hit from the rough it looked like they were hitting the old rock-flites into the green. Land, bound forward, and keep going.

There will be little or no difference in ball control from the fairway. There will be a big difference from the rough.

The USGA showed that clubs in the 5 iron range actually had a tiny bit more spin from the rough with the U grooves, than with V grooves. That also will go away completely.

However, if the USGA was trying to get the players to change to a more spinning ball, I have to wonder how much they will succeed. The less spinning ball goes straighter. Why won't the players hit fairway woods from the tee that go just as far as driver would will a more spinning ball, and have the ball go straighter? Then when appropriate bomb away with driver and the straight ball for the obscene distances when they feel they can get away with it?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Clark

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 12:33:13 PM »
The old Ping Eye 2 sand and lob wedges with the square (box) grooves are tremendous clubs.  They had a great grind to them also.  It's not a suprise to find out pros are looking to give them a try.  These clubs have for years maintained a strong value on the market, with most Eye 2 berrylium copper lob wedges going for well over $200 on Ebay.

There is no doubt that short irons from the rough are being affected by the rule change.  I'm not sure the USGA was primarily concerned with reducing distance by the rule change (a by-product of forcing players go with a higher spin ball).  I think they were mostly concerned with making players pay for being inaccurate off the tee.  Players like Nicklaus and Norman were long AND straight.  If you weren't, you needed a magical  and creative short game like Seve to compensate.  Those skills had been lost a little with the U grooves.  I'm really interested to see how players adapt this year, and which pro's games struggle because of this.

Wade Whitehead

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 12:40:10 PM »
I understand the new groove rule and why it's been implemented.  Won't the same guys win tournaments anyway?  Scores may be a bit higher, but I wonder if there will be any shakeup at all re: who wins where and such.  It will interesting to see if essentially the same field plays in the Tour Championship next fall.

Assuming the same guys succeed, what difference will the change have made?

WW

Garland Bayley

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 12:54:09 PM »
I understand the new groove rule and why it's been implemented.  Won't the same guys win tournaments anyway?  Scores may be a bit higher, but I wonder if there will be any shakeup at all re: who wins where and such.  It will interesting to see if essentially the same field plays in the Tour Championship next fall.

Assuming the same guys succeed, what difference will the change have made?

WW

I would guess that JB Holmes would win less. I.e., the extreme bomb and gouge guys do less well. I think it is instructive that John Daly went out and got the grandfathered Ping clubs, thereby allowing him to continue bomb and gouge.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

SL_Solow

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 01:28:52 PM »
It is too early to tell the impact.  Onr full field event is hardly an appropriate sample.  However, in response to the question regarding the importance of reducing spin if the same people win, the potential impact goes to some of the central issues discussed regularly on this site.  If the new rules deemphasize distance and place a greater emphasis on controlling the ball, there may be 2 important impacts on architecture.

First, if the pros do not hit it as far either because they use a "spinnier" ball or because they throttle back, then those clubs seeking a "championship" course will not have to build as long a couse.  Hence less renovations for the sake of length.  Perhaps shorter new courses.  We might even retire some back tees.  All this will result in cost savings which might make the game a little more affordable.  It will also lessen the gap between the courses played by the ordinary player and the pros making it more like the times of Hogan, Niclkaus and Watson.

Second, to the extent that the ability to generate spin is reduced, those seeking to hit approach shots close will need to approach from better angles than before.  Thus strategic play will be rewarded and strategic design will be vindicated.

Too eearly to tell whether this will work but the potential is there.



C. Squier

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 02:02:01 PM »
I understand the new groove rule and why it's been implemented.  Won't the same guys win tournaments anyway?  Scores may be a bit higher, but I wonder if there will be any shakeup at all re: who wins where and such.  It will interesting to see if essentially the same field plays in the Tour Championship next fall.

Assuming the same guys succeed, what difference will the change have made?

WW

I would guess that JB Holmes would win less. I.e., the extreme bomb and gouge guys do less well. I think it is instructive that John Daly went out and got the grandfathered Ping clubs, thereby allowing him to continue bomb and gouge.


Because we all know JB Holmes and John Daly were putting up too many W's. 

Sam Morrow

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 08:47:52 PM »
I understand the new groove rule and why it's been implemented.  Won't the same guys win tournaments anyway?  Scores may be a bit higher, but I wonder if there will be any shakeup at all re: who wins where and such.  It will interesting to see if essentially the same field plays in the Tour Championship next fall.

Assuming the same guys succeed, what difference will the change have made?

WW

I would guess that JB Holmes would win less. I.e., the extreme bomb and gouge guys do less well. I think it is instructive that John Daly went out and got the grandfathered Ping clubs, thereby allowing him to continue bomb and gouge.


Because we all know JB Holmes and John Daly were putting up too many W's. 

Come on Clint, you forgot Bubba Watson!

C. Squier

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 08:54:30 PM »
Too funny Sam.

In the end, pros will still do inhuman things on the golf course no matter what equipment they use.  They'll shoot scores on member's courses that will ruffle feathers and we'll uproar about something else to try and minimize their abilities. 

I'm still convinced this isn't about golf courses, but reverse ego strokes from people who can't accept they can't do what pros do.

Sam Morrow

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 08:55:21 PM »
Too funny Sam.

In the end, pros will still do inhuman things on the golf course no matter what equipment they use.  They'll shoot scores on member's courses that will ruffle feathers and we'll uproar about something else to try and minimize their abilities. 

I'm still convinced this isn't about golf courses, but reverse ego strokes from people who can't accept they can't do what pros do.


Be careful, you hit the nail on the head.

mike_beene

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2010, 11:50:15 PM »
Jeff,I guess I have to agree that grooves mean nothing in a bunker. However,do they ever touch the ball in bermuda rough? Not the kind we play in down here.But I know the science people are convinced it makes a difference. Showing my age,I really miss the crushed egg soft feel of balata around the greens.Bet you couldn't hit balata with zip grooves and keep it from coming right back to you.

Garland Bayley

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 11:59:35 PM »
Too funny Sam.

In the end, pros will still do inhuman things on the golf course no matter what equipment they use.  They'll shoot scores on member's courses that will ruffle feathers and we'll uproar about something else to try and minimize their abilities. 

I'm still convinced this isn't about golf courses, but reverse ego strokes from people who can't accept they can't do what pros do.


Be careful, you hit the nail on the head.

That's total nonsense. There are a bazillion people out there that can hit it as far as the pros. There are only a few that can "turn three strokes into two" like the pros.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Big Pete

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2010, 06:06:47 AM »
In my opinion it is only when we have firm greens that we will really see the impact of the new grooves . My impression is that many of the courses on the PGA tour are not firm enough to really show the difference
And those pros that were using the Pro V1x are simply swapping to the Pro V1 and not having too much difficulty with wedges most of the time .
It may be a different matter on a links or sandbelt type course or a course set up for a major championship where the greens really are firm and fast....

Sam Morrow

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2010, 09:41:47 AM »
Too funny Sam.

In the end, pros will still do inhuman things on the golf course no matter what equipment they use.  They'll shoot scores on member's courses that will ruffle feathers and we'll uproar about something else to try and minimize their abilities. 

I'm still convinced this isn't about golf courses, but reverse ego strokes from people who can't accept they can't do what pros do.


Be careful, you hit the nail on the head.

That's total nonsense. There are a bazillion people out there that can hit it as far as the pros. There are only a few that can "turn three strokes into two" like the pros.


Of course there are guys out there who can hit it as far as the pros but can they control the golf ball and have their misses be as consistent? Hitting it a long way is just one facet of the pro game.

C. Squier

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2010, 10:34:20 AM »
Too funny Sam.

In the end, pros will still do inhuman things on the golf course no matter what equipment they use.  They'll shoot scores on member's courses that will ruffle feathers and we'll uproar about something else to try and minimize their abilities. 

I'm still convinced this isn't about golf courses, but reverse ego strokes from people who can't accept they can't do what pros do.


Be careful, you hit the nail on the head.

That's total nonsense. There are a bazillion people out there that can hit it as far as the pros. There are only a few that can "turn three strokes into two" like the pros.


Of course there are guys out there who can hit it as far as the pros but can they control the golf ball and have their misses be as consistent? Hitting it a long way is just one facet of the pro game.

Honestly, I would say that total distance may be the CLOSEST thing that pros and amateurs alike do. 

Sam Morrow

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2010, 05:04:36 PM »
Too funny Sam.

In the end, pros will still do inhuman things on the golf course no matter what equipment they use.  They'll shoot scores on member's courses that will ruffle feathers and we'll uproar about something else to try and minimize their abilities. 

I'm still convinced this isn't about golf courses, but reverse ego strokes from people who can't accept they can't do what pros do.


Be careful, you hit the nail on the head.

That's total nonsense. There are a bazillion people out there that can hit it as far as the pros. There are only a few that can "turn three strokes into two" like the pros.


Of course there are guys out there who can hit it as far as the pros but can they control the golf ball and have their misses be as consistent? Hitting it a long way is just one facet of the pro game.

Honestly, I would say that total distance may be the CLOSEST thing that pros and amateurs alike do. 

No doubt about that.

Jim_Kennedy

Re: Top Pros and the New Groove Rule
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2010, 06:16:47 PM »
This isn't about 'reverse ego strokes' at all, that's baloney.

Ping's old wedges negate skill in the same way as the Spin Milled wedges of today. This isn't about keeping the Holmes' or the Watsons out of the winners circle, it's just a way to keep the modern day Calcavecchia's honest when they hit it into the rough.




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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