Crump & Wilson do Cobb's Creek "for the love of the game" - Now EVEN MORE Crump!

[Joe Bausch]

I think Peter Putter is William Evans of Public Ledger fame.

I found yesterday, with an assist from new researcher John S, another article indicating Crump being part of the group that laid out Cobb's Creek.  This article was from 1921.

My suspicion from way back when turns out to be correct:  long time Philly golf writer William Evans wrote for a period of time as "Peter Putter", as this snippet from a Dec 22, 1917 article in the Public Ledger by Robert Maxwell confirms:

[MCirba]

Kyle Harris has walked through these areas and believes that the architects choice would have been to go down just below the old 17th green (today's 11th), and then play the finale up to the left of today's 17th hole.

It's a shorter carry to flat ground, a shorter walk to the tee, and runs more contiguously in terms of the property boundary they were traversing.   

Below I show what I think is his theory in blue, compared to the angle from the old 17th par three tee we proposed earlier, which is shown in red.

I think he may be rig...eerrr....rrrrrr....righhhhhh......umm....

Well, I think his theory bears consideration.   

Ahhh, Joe...quite a thread from the good old days.   Sad to see how many have moved on.

And after spending countless hours with you (and others) traipsing through that area in search of the architects' original intended 18th hole, I believe I've come to the unmistakable conclusion that our friend Kyle Harris was....

rrr...rrr...iiiiii....ggghhh....aargh.   

Right.

[mike_malone]

What do early scorecards suggest?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle Harris has walked through these areas and believes that the architects choice would have been to go down just below the old 17th green (today's 11th), and then play the finale up to the left of today's 17th hole.

It's a shorter carry to flat ground, a shorter walk to the tee, and runs more contiguously in terms of the property boundary they were traversing.   

Below I show what I think is his theory in blue, compared to the angle from the old 17th par three tee we proposed earlier, which is shown in red.

I think he may be rig...eerrr....rrrrrr....righhhhhh......umm....

Well, I think his theory bears consideration.   

Ahhh, Joe...quite a thread from the good old days.   Sad to see how many have moved on.

And after spending countless hours with you (and others) traipsing through that area in search of the architects' original intended 18th hole, I believe I've come to the unmistakable conclusion that our friend Kyle Harris was....

rrr...rrr...iiiiii....ggghhh....aargh.   

Right.

That's okay Mike, I'm sure you won't let it get to my head. 

[MCirba]

What do early scorecards suggest?

Mayday,

The hole the architects originally intended to be the best hole on the golf course, the eighteenth, never was able to be realized as they were prevented from removing trees as these snippets of two articles indicate.   

That's why it's been such a fascinating exercise to try to understand what they were imagining.   Maybe someday greater latitude in construction may be feasible for the greater good.





Kyle Harris,

Your argument is bolstered by this drawing from one of the course plans that ended up on the cutting room floor, that to me shows some type of access down the embankment from the original 17th green (today's 11th) to the creek floor below.   

Is it a path?   A bridge?   Tough to tell, but it was definitely drawn in by the archies.   

What does seem conclusive is that the original thought was to proceed left from the 17th green consistent with your instincts, and that is part of what has framed our thinking since this thread was first published lo those many moons ago.   

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,


There's the possibility that the dashed line just north of it is some kind of underground utility or other ROW.

If so, perhaps the presence of such is the reason the the 18th couldn't be built as originally conceived.

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike,


There's the possibility that the dashed line just north of it is some kind of underground utility or other ROW.

If so, perhaps the presence of such is the reason the the 18th couldn't be built as originally conceived.

A dashed line on maps as a street edge is used (in the UK, at least) to indicate it’s unfenced on that side. That looks like the road edge?
F.

[MCirba]

Kyle/Marty,

We have maps that indicate the existing gas lines and sewer lines that run through the property, and even where the railroad owned a swath for a period.   That area is unaffected.

Also, the dotted line on the road edge is only conceptual.   Those who plotted the city drew all of the roads in a grid, but no formal road was ever created that extended "Arch St." out that far northwest, so it's only superimposed over what is likely a city map provided by the city through the Fairmount Park Commission at the time.   A similar one with the final approved plan from January 1915 is also in our possession and is on a topographical map.

I think the articles above make pretty clear that it was the prohibition against removing trees that caused the architects conception for "the best hole on the course" to be cast into the dustbin.

Good ideas, though, thanks!

[MCirba]

Marty,

Just to clarify better what I mean, here's a modern aerial with the area in question at the top of the screen running left to right.   As you can see, no road (i.e. Arch Street) was ever built where it was conceptually drawn on the map.   Thanks!