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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2010, 08:36:35 PM »
Pacific Dunes (PD) was the best Doak course I had seen - that is - until I saw OM.

After quite an uninspiring starting hole which is somewhat a little out of character with the rest of the layout the course certainly “opens up” thereafter and has a superb routing. It moves out to the ocean very quickly before coming back inland to then touch it again before the final trek home.

Doak is certainly not afraid to do things a little bit differently – back to back P3’s after the turn and three P3’s and three P5’s spread amongst three P4’s is a bold way to build a back nine. That coupled with a ninth hole that has distinctly different upper and lower greens you get a feeling that he is more interested in trying to find the best holes rather than applying a specific formula to his routing to which he should be commended.

PD very much encourages one to leave the SW “flop shot” skills at home and really focus on testing one’s ground game moreso. Don’t get me wrong the SW is certainly not a redundant club it’s just that with the tight lies and angles to the greens a deft touch with say a 7I and putter are just as good as one who likes to take an aerial approach around the greens.

It’s a credit to his skills as a designer that he can build seven P4’s on the F9 with such wonderful variety that you almost miss that very fact. I think his P3’s and P5’s as collections are stronger at OM but the debate can rage on as to one’s favourite layout at the facility – they are both mighty fine courses.

Holes I noted:
1st = a reasonably short P4 of around 370yds with a wicked greensite. There is more width off the tee than one first may feel – I took a long iron and it wasn’t a bad choice with the firm’n’fast conditions providing plenty of “run”. I only question this hole in relation to the rest of the layout where the width off the tee is obvious ?



2nd = a common theme at PD is the use of centreline bunkering to ask questions of the golfer. Which line do I want to take ? And one can work backwards from the green to the tee on this 370yd P4 with a punchbowl green. The great thing about centreline bunkering is that it makes people make choices off the tee rather than steering them around a layout with fairway lined bunkering.



4th = this “clifftop” hole is as good as any of its more famous relatives at Pebble Beach and Ballybunion in the strength of its simple strategy. The bunkers off the tee left and relatively close the green almost “force” one to flirt with the cliffs if they want the more direct line to the green. It’s a beautiful hole and as a 463yd P4 isn’t exactly short for size either.



 6th = this short P4 at 316yds is a great teaser. One is presented with a wide fairway with a lone bunker in the dune right protecting the most direct line into the green. The width off the drive is more than compensated by the narrowness of the green with a bunker protecting the “fat” left side in and a steep fallaway to the right. A simple yet great strategic hole.



10th = a P3 of enormous elasticity from 135-206yds – I was particularly pleased with my tee shot to birdie territory only to be out-done by a hole in one !! The great thing about the hole is that it proves that you don’t need to bunker a greensite to make it a challenge. The contours in the green and effects of the wind on the exposed relatively narrow greensite provide enough of a challenge.



11th = not as dramatic as the B2B P3’s at Cypress Point but a solid combination all the same. The bunkers and a steep back to front slope make this short 150yd hole no pushover.



13th = I’m sure Tom was well pleased to discover such a “dramatic” looking hole on this 444yds beauty. It shares the same land as the 6th and has probably the widest fairway on the course that then progressively narrows to the green. Very similar in style to the 4th yet it plays in the opposite direction. The hole is further enhanced by a lovely false front greensite and a large sand blow-out to the right adds to the wonderful look and feel that this hole affords.



15th = I thought that this was the best P5 on the layout – primarily in the fact that all the other P5’s placed a similar emphasis on missing the greenside bunkers. This 540yd hole doesn’t need them – with the fantastic greensite with its knob and fallaways placing enough emphasis on the strength and quality of the approach.



This is a very impressive layout with some very thoughtful yet challenging holes. Its strength lies in the many half-par holes and the way the routing considers the wind impacts that one will get throughout the round. Very clever use of the land re: the transitioning of the holes and greensites that sit perfectly on the natural terrain.

Who needs to go the great “links” of GB&I when you’ve got OM and PD from the stable of Tom Doak right next to one another ?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 08:45:33 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Ryan Admussen

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2010, 10:16:31 PM »
Love the picture of 15!

Rob Rigg

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2010, 12:54:40 AM »
Kevin - PD is a fun course isn't it!

I am a huge fan of the 3rd which was not pictured above - a great hole that introduces the golfer to the ocean - I love the center line bunkers off the tee and the NAXTY bunker front right of the green.

Depending on the wind, some bunkers are in play more than others which makes the tee shot a blast. While the fairway is huge, the hazards make the drive a real thrill every time.

I love the look of the hole at twilight - this isn't a great photo but might get the thought across - golf nirvana.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 12:58:55 AM by Rob Rigg »

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2010, 06:52:02 AM »
Rob

I had a blast at PD

The 3rd is a very good hole - a little too similar with the 12th perhaps ?

Jud_T

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2010, 09:09:47 AM »
Rob,

Thanx for the pic! I agree heartily on number 3, one of my favorites....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2010, 09:54:36 AM »
Interesting commentary guys.  The last few posts really speak to the quality of holes there because I thought #3 and #18 were the best two par 5s there....but an arguement could be made that 12 and 15 are better.

Both the fairway and greenside bunkering on #18 though is some of the most wild and unique I've ever seen.

Rob Rigg

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2010, 04:00:16 PM »
I really enjoy #12 although it seems to get the least amount of props from most people of the par 5s? ie) it is just a connector hole from the back to back par 3s at 10 and 11 and the all-world 13th.

I think #3 is more interesting off the tee because of the central fairway bunkers but, depending on the wind, #12 can present its own challenges. The green site at #12 is kind of cool, I like how it is tucked in a little cubby hole of sorts. You can be battling the wind from tee to green and then get a little rest while you are putting - it's like a safe harbor. The view from the tee is also really awesome - maybe from a "golf" perspective it is not the strongest par five on the course, but other elements make it thoroughly enjoyable.

Pretty sure the 3rd is my favorite par five on the course - the tee shot is a thrill and the green site is challenging - especially into the wind or versus a cross wind. Seeing someone in the right bunker is a riot (seeing yourself in there, not so good).

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2010, 04:14:07 PM »
The 12th at Pacific Dunes was built on the flattest, least-interesting portion of the property. But, it's still a pretty good hole. I appreciate the restraint exercised by the design team.  I believe many firms would have reshaped much of the hole to add some "pizazz," but Renaissance kept things simple, with 3 small features creating captivating strategy.

1- Shared fairway bunker with the 4th hole on the left (I feature that really adds interest if the hole ever plays with a bit of a cross wind.
2- Central fairway bunker requiring careful placement of one lay up (again, especially in certain winds).
3- Slope feeding onto the green (pictured below, looking back to tee) from short left such that anything with a low trajectory will kick all of the way through the green. Anyone approaching the green in two must either be monsterously long (see ReMax Long Drive Championship) with calm winds or approach the right side of the green from the right side of the fairway (the longer route).
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2010, 05:59:14 PM »
Kyle

Great picture - I have one from virtually exactly the same spot.  :D

Point taken re: the flat land. I do however - like the entrance to the greensite and how it sets up for a draw into it.

Brent Carlson

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (OM + Pacific Dunes Update)
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 10:30:19 PM »
Does anyone know if golf is allowed on OM before the official opening?  Is the 10 hole preview still allowed?  Thanks.

Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2010, 08:39:39 AM »
KP:
Would you recommend taking a caddy for the first rounds on these courses? Or would reading the posts and seeing the pictures here be enough to help first time round?

Also, what tees did you play off? did you play off blacks on all the courses you played?

Brett
@theflatsticker

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2010, 10:04:37 AM »
Brett

Others may disagree with me but I don't see the necessity for caddies at any of the Bandon courses.

Having played without them throughout Australia and GB&I ie: pretty much all my golfing life - I simply dont see the need. Each to their own I suppose ?

I never play off the back plates on any golf course unless "forced to". The game is hard enough as it is and I am no longer a reasonable single digit player to do them justice. ;D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 10:06:28 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2010, 10:14:03 AM »
at this late hour, this is addictive.

KP you have clearly a unique viewpoint to this, in doing such a great golf tour and playing so many different courses in succession most days, can you comment a little on your decision making process on the tee please?

Club choice, type of shot required, etc, it seems to me that if one makes a poor choice on a special hole, the reflection of that shot will not be good one and thus influence your analysis of the hole and course.

I used a few caddies on my trip in Ireland/Scotland - some places, esp RCD, our caddy was very useful, and I also had much less control over the golf ball and sing back then :-[

And finally, are you very good at remembering each hole whereever you go, or do you have a process where you jot down notes to go with your pics? did you sit down at the end of each course and make some notes, or do you not care for this either?

I want to retain as much of my trip as possible. :)
@theflatsticker

Ross Waldorf

Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2010, 02:07:10 PM »
Brett:

Did you enjoy your rounds in Ireland and Scotland with caddies? That's a big part of why I'd recommend using one in Bandon. I tend to use caddies for my afternoon rounds when I'm there to minimize the exertion, in part. And of course, a caddie can definitely tell you things that wouldn't be obvious, especially the first time round. But the big reason for me is that when I'm in Bandon, I'm having myself a little pleasure golf trip, and walking a course with a caddie is usually just an enjoyable time. You can walk and wander and look around, and you don't have to schlep your bag. Nice to have somebody else carry it. I'm always carrying it myself, so the caddy is a bit of luxury.

Have a good time.
R

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2010, 07:42:28 PM »
KP you have clearly a unique viewpoint to this, in doing such a great golf tour and playing so many different courses in succession most days, can you comment a little on your decision making process on the tee please?

Club choice, type of shot required, etc, it seems to me that if one makes a poor choice on a special hole, the reflection of that shot will not be good one and thus influence your analysis of the hole and course.

Brett

I'm of the adage to try and get it in play and take it from there. Obviously a course like Olympic tested me out moreso than any course at Bandon with whom you will be surprised in general has more width off the tee than you realise.

I disagree with your second premise to a degree - the hole and all it's nuances are there in front of you. Of course I dont always pull off what strategy I intend but that doesn't preclude me from appreciating the architecture that's in play. Case in point - the Cape hole at OM. I absolutely butchered the hole but absolutely loved what was in play particularly looking back from the green.

I used a few caddies on my trip in Ireland/Scotland - some places, esp RCD, our caddy was very useful, and I also had much less control over the golf ball and sing back then :-[

As I said before - each to their own. I was required to take one around OM and enjoyed the experience with Peter my caddy - probably becasue we went out there alone.

And finally, are you very good at remembering each hole whereever you go, or do you have a process where you jot down notes to go with your pics? did you sit down at the end of each course and make some notes, or do you not care for this either?

I always grab two scorecards - one to make notes and the other for prosperity. I also had plenty of time on the trip to reflect on the great courses I was seeing after the round and between travels particularly as I was travelling alone. A few tips:
- take plenty of photos in hole sequence - makes it easier to remember the hole afterwards
- always carry a spare battery - nothing like seeing a great pic. opportunity and not being able to take a photo of same.

Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2010, 01:44:43 AM »
Brett:

Did you enjoy your rounds in Ireland and Scotland with caddies?
Have a good time.
R
Ross:
- I used a caddy at RCD - was ok, of great assistance on the blind holes - esp at the other end, in knowing where to look when you missed the line.
- young guy at Portmarnock - wasn't very interested in us.
- We had a great guy at Waterville – he carried the double bagger of my mate & I, and have great memories of playing golf, walking the links with a great friend.
And finally at Kingsbarns, in what was an expensive response to continually missing the ballot every day – we jumped in a cab with a “what the hell” attitude, forget the expense, and had a tremendous day .

A common theme, from other friends and myself is some caddies reading of putts can sometimes be better off not advised. Even a respectful request to, it is ok, do you mind if I read my own putts, sometimes still doesn’t stop the advice.

Overall, and ancient and traditional aspect of the game, which I wish I had more opportunity to enjoy, sometimes, but not all the time.

Very excited about golfing in the USA.

Brett
@theflatsticker

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2010, 02:55:39 AM »
Brett

I also recommend you check out some great photo threads that our own Kyle Hendeson did a while back on Bandon Trails / Dunes -

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37759.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37741.0/

Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2010, 04:37:34 AM »
Thanks KP - I will check out Kyle's threads.

Sorry, I didn't mean to kind of highjack the tread with caddy chat.
@theflatsticker

Terry Lavin

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2010, 02:37:36 PM »
Kevin,

Thanks for the wonderful gift of this photo/commentary thread.  I am headed to Bandon in early May with 60 Chicagoans for our opening round on Old MacDonald.  I am going to forward this thread to the Evans Scholars Foundation, which is the charity that put the trip together and they'll send it to all participants.  We'll be there May 4-6 if any gca types are around, track us down.  We won't be hard to find!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2010, 04:51:58 PM »
If I am taking pictures throughout the round I will always try and hole sign pictures. Since there weren't any at Old Macdonald I simply made a "mistake" picture of the ground to differentiate the holes. It is a lot easier than dotting the scorecard since I might forget to dot a picture and that throws everything off  count.
As far as caddies go, at Bandon I'll employ them on PD and OM, not BD or BT.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in Bandon: USA Final Frontier Trip (Old Macdonald + PD Update)
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2010, 07:22:41 PM »
Terry

My pleasure - I hope you and others are able to enjoy OM as much as I did. I'm sure fellow GCAers will post numerous threads on OM and I look forward to hearing what you think after your trip in May.

Whilst it takes a lot of time to post one's thoughts & pics.  I think it's only right to repay somewhat the great generosity I experienced throughout the USA.

Peter Pratt

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Bump--to tie in to Terry Lavin's comments.