Redlands CC (MacKenzie) Pics

[Peter Ferlicca]

Redlands Country Club is a nice little private track in Redlands, CA (Riverside Area).  As to the designer of the course if we could get a little help from Tom Doak or DeVries that would be nice.  In Tom Doak's, "The Life and Work of Dr. Alistair MacKenzie" he lists Redlands Country Club as a MacKenzie redesign.  Mike DeVries is doing an ongoing restoration of the club and he says that it is a Norman MacBeth design (Designer of Wilshire CC).  Anyways, I enjoyed the course a lot, and the fairways have TONS of movement.  The way the fairways drape over the landscape reminded me a lot of Pasatiempo for a couple of holes, especially 2, 12, 17, 18.  The greens were bent/poa trivialis and were LIGHTNING quick, at least a 12+.  If you were above the hole good luck stopping the ball within 5 feet of the cup, as I found out 3 putting the first 4 greens being above the hole.


Hole 1    323 yards  Par 4 (Short uphill starter, you have to place your tee shot perfectly on the right side of the fairway just to have a shot at the green, wild looking bunker by the green)




Hole 2    431 yards Par 4 (A great hole that swoops uphill to the left, with a wicked hump in the green too)






Hole 3   168 yards  Par 3




Hole 4  355 yards  Par 4  (A slight downhill short par 4, practically driveable)




Hole 5  195 yards Par 3  (A good long par 3 set down in the valley)



Hole 6   517 yards  Par 5  ( A reachable par 5 that runs in a little valley, the green is pushed up against the hill on the right side)





Hole 7  421 yards  Par 4  (A downhill straight away par 4)



Hole 8  307 yards  Par 4  (A WILD short par 4, it is almost like a ? shaped fairway, if you don't position your tee shot just perfectly you are blocked out by trees)
Cart Path is right in front of you on your tee shot, pretty big eyesore






Hole 9   427 yards Par 4  (A good dogleg right, that dips down a little bit, really sloped back to front green)





Back Nine to come Later, the Better Nine

[Ian Larson]

There is a George Thomas & Bell lineage in there as well but from what I understand there is barely anything left of MacK and Thomas / Bell. Be sure to include the beautiful pond / water bunker feature.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Hole 10  146 yards Par 3  (A good short par 3 with a raised green)



Hole 11   349 yards Par 4  (Dogleg right with another wicked green that was sloped back to front)





Hole 12  367 yards  Par 4   (A natural wash cuts through the fairway, you either have to hit a draw with a driver or lay up and have a much longer shot in)







Hole 13   168 yards Par 3  (One of the coolest par 3's I have seen, a thin wide green that has a big pot hole bunker right in the front middle.  If you are any bit short or spin it too much, your ball goes some thirty feet down below the green.  And the green is separeted into two sections, putting from one area to the other is an auto 3 putt.)






Hole 14   363 yards Par 4  (Another short downhill par 4 that is almost drivebale)





Hole 15   571 yards Par 5  (You have to hit your tee shot over the left tree, and then just get it down there are far as possible)





Hole 16   385 yards Par 4  (The trees on the right come into play more than I thought, and my drive went right into it leaving myself a 200 yard shot still into the green)





Hole 17  361 yards  Par 4  (This hole remined me a lot of #14 at Pasa, the fairways looks as if it was grassed into a ravine.  The green is a boomerang green.)







Hole 18   432 yards Par 4  ( A great finishing hole, downhill tee shot then back uphill to the green)

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for the photos PFerlicca

I help out The Alister Mackenzie Society with research and the whole Redlands involvement by Mackenzie has some question marks against it in our eyes. Here is what we have (which isn't much). Sean Tully of our little research group may care to pipe in. DSH is Doak Scott Haddock "The Life and Work of Dr Alister Mackenzie" while C&W is Cornish and Whitten "The Architects of Golf". Anyone who might have some actual documentary evidence one way or another would be welcome to post it.

Listed in DSH as a 1930 revision with Robert Hunter. Hawtree and C&W list as a revision with no date.  Club website: "On February 24, 1926, an additional 55 acres of land was purchased from H.H. Ford and Isaac Ford. The project of preparing the new greens, fairways and bunkers was completed under the prime direction of Club member Raymond Hornby with the counsel of Alister Mackenzie of Leeds, England. Mr. Mackenzie had previously aided in the design for such famous courses as Cypress Point, Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz and the Valley Club in Santa Barbara. There were 32 sand traps on the first 9 holes and 42 on the back 9. The full 18-hole course was opened for play on November 26, 1927; 6130 yards in length, par 70." Opening date inconsistent with date in DSH. Question marks on this.

[Tim Gavrich]

Very interesting looking course.  I believe the U of Redlands golf team practices there.  If so, it is easy to see why they're perennially one of the better D-III teams out there; it looks like accuracy and putting are high virtues at RCC.

[Robert_Ball]

Redlands was designed by Norman MacBeth who also designed Wilshire CC in L.A.   MacKenzie is rumored to have visited and offered advice but we don't know specifics.  Mike DeVries is their consulting architect and has been responsible for adding bunkers and tees, improvements to the driving range, and the aforementioned irrigation pond.

I think it's a fun course.  Most players either love it or hate it.

Here's an aerial of the odd shaped 8th hole.  The tee is in the lower-right corner, green is to the left.

[Rob Rigg]

PF,

Thanks for another great photo tour!

This looks like a really fun course - the homes do not look intrusive and the movement in the land seems to provide a lot of interest.

Nothing wrong with a bit of quirk here and there - definitely some "unique" holes.

[Yancey_Beamer]

One of my favorite courses in the area.Most holes are unique and quirk is a factor.
One ,ten and seventeen are favorites.

[Mike_DeVries]

Nice photo spread of the holes.

I have consulted with Redlands for the past 7 years or so.  I did a Long Range Plan for the club and they had a water issue, due to receiving potable water at pressure from the city for many years but is now on a non-potable supply that is not at pressure, so we had to develop a pond to hold the water and pump from that.  The result of that was an impact to holes 14-16 (old routing) and we altered the routing numbering when building the pond to the current sequence.

As to the design credit, there was a 9-hole course going back prior to 1900 -- not sure of the designer.  Norman MacBeth was hired for the redesign in the mid-20's.  As far as I can tell, MacKenzie and MacBeth knew each other from England and MacKenzie was going through LA on his way to Australia, wrote his friend about his travel plans (I have no evidence of this, but speculating as to the relationship and friendliness those days), and Norman told him about his project in Redlands.  I believe Alister was on the site for a couple days and critiqued Norman's plans.  The course reflects some of Alister's ideas, but they are not executed very well (for instance, the boomerang green on #17 doesn't allow you to putt around the corner) so I think Alister gave some advice to Norman but it is really MacBeth's design.

The course is fun to play and the greens are very fast in the winter, fast in the summer.  There is some pitch to them but not the typical wild MacKenzie greens.  The course is short but very fun to play, as accuracy is essential while not demanding you take the driver out of play.  I think it is a very good member course and would be a fun place to belong to -- also, the food is outstanding and well attended by the membership.

Thanks for the thread!

[Sean_A]

P (Peter?)

Thanks for the pix.  As I like all the topsy turvy fairway stuff the course looks very fine to my eye.  Although, the trees are a bit of a nightmare and some bunkers look less than inspired.  Are the trees part of the plan or are they considered a "safety" attribute?

Ciao 

[Peter Ferlicca]

P (Peter?)

Thanks for the pix.  As I like all the topsy turvy fairway stuff the course looks very fine to my eye.  Although, the trees are a bit of a nightmare and some bunkers look less than inspired.  Are the trees part of the plan or are they considered a "safety" attribute?

Ciao 

Sean,

Yeah its Peter, the fairways have tons of movement in them providing some interesting lies hitting into the greens.  I don't know if DeVries is doing anything with the bunkers there, but I am sure that the course would look better with a bunker restoration.  With the trees, the old photos show the course on a barren site exactly like Pasatiempo was, so I am guessing they just planted trees along the way.  Some of the holes are quite close to each other, so I am sure safety is the big reason for planting them.

[Mike_DeVries]

P (Peter?)

Thanks for the pix.  As I like all the topsy turvy fairway stuff the course looks very fine to my eye.  Although, the trees are a bit of a nightmare and some bunkers look less than inspired.  Are the trees part of the plan or are they considered a "safety" attribute?

Ciao 

Sean,

Yeah its Peter, the fairways have tons of movement in them providing some interesting lies hitting into the greens.  I don't know if DeVries is doing anything with the bunkers there, but I am sure that the course would look better with a bunker restoration.  With the trees, the old photos show the course on a barren site exactly like Pasatiempo was, so I am guessing they just planted trees along the way.  Some of the holes are quite close to each other, so I am sure safety is the big reason for planting them.

The trees have been (over)planted throughout the years and selective removal and replacement is part of the long range plan, as is redoing the bunkers.  But, for now, no other work has been approved and I don't know when that will change --  economy, member satisfaction is high, etc.

Best,
Mike

[Jon Spaulding]

There is a George Thomas & Bell lineage in there as well but from what I understand there is barely anything left of MacK and Thomas / Bell. Be sure to include the beautiful pond / water bunker feature.

Perhaps you have this confused with Red Hill? There's only one water bunker of any merit in SCA.....and it's located on current #1 there.

[Jon Spaulding]

Peter; thanks for taking the time to play there and post the images. Hopefuly my recoomendation was valid

I put the golf course towards the bottom of the infamous "2nd tier" in Southern CA. Not a bad group to sleep with.

I agree with most of your comments. The natural movement on the property is well-utilized. #4, 10, 12, 17 were highlight holes in my opinion.

Here's hoping they continue down the path of righteousness with Mike DeVries. The members I played with a while back were void of information as to the direction of the greens committee.

Attached is a photo of the contours on #18FW 9 (scroll to the right). the boost for a well-placed and well-struck drive is well done and unique in this part of the world.

[Ian Larson]

There is a George Thomas & Bell lineage in there as well but from what I understand there is barely anything left of MacK and Thomas / Bell. Be sure to include the beautiful pond / water bunker feature.

Perhaps you have this confused with Red Hill? There's only one water bunker of any merit in SCA.....and it's located on current #1 there.

 


Yes thats exactly what I did. *foot in mouth*. I played Red Hill 5 or 6 years ago while at Riv to play all of Thomas' courses and was not impressed at all. Looking at the pictures here I was thinking how great of a job Mike had done and I need to go back. In any case RedLANDS does look very interesting in contrast to its counterpart down the road.

[jkinney]

As always, a great photo tour, Peter. Thanks.

[Sean_Tully]

P-
Thanks for posting your photos of Redlands I have not been there yet and did not expect all of that movement, so I got a kick out of looking at the pics. I have done some limited research on the course trying to see where the credit for the course lies and if MacKenzie was involved in any way. Through mostly internet research, I have not come across any mention of AM's involvement. When we first started looking a little deeper into AM body of work we started with "The Life and Work of Alister MacKenzie" and worked from there. As Mike D. mentioned there is a connection with Macbeth, but there is also another player in the story of the club. In an article from November 6, 1927 the club gives a lot of praise to the work of Raymond Hornby who also happens to be a member. They give him credit for laying out the additional nine holes and also superintending the construction.

Would love to see what the course looked like from the late 20's to get a better idea for who had their hands in the remodeling of the course.

Tully

[Tom MacWood]

Raymond Hornby? Who was Raymond Hornby? I've never heard of him.

Wendell Miller was living in SoCal at the time (prior to his association with AM), at Toluca Lake, I wonder if he was involved in the construction and someone deduced AM must have been involved as well.