Tobacco Road - An alternate view

[Mike Cirba]

I played Tobacco Road over Christmas vacation and having played a number of Strantz courses prior, and having read the largely glowing reviews here and elsewhere, I was really looking excitedly to playing there.     

Following were my notes....I'm not sure I will try to defend my impressions, but I did think they were worthy of discussion and analysis.   I won't have much time to reply over the next few days, but will be reading as I'm able.


Tobacco Road is possibly the most original, artistic, and creative golf course built in the past 30 years, and for style points alone Tobacco Road gets all 10's. 
 
I've struggled more in my mind with how to accurately critiqueTobacco Road than any course I've ever played, simply because it is that good and original in concept, with bold architectural statements and death-defying visuals that may be the most anxiety-producing in the game.   
 
But, somewhat sadly, it may also be where the "return to classic" values movement of the past fifteen years and the rugged look inherent with that genre actually "jumped the shark" and began to become a caricature of itself.
 
I say that because as stunningly exhilerating as the course looks, large portions of it don't work well at all for golf.   The bold sculpting of the land creates bowls in many spots that 1) don't drain well at all despite the obvious catchbasins, and 2) collect every ball within a large radius to the same divot-filled mucky pocket.  For a course built within the sandhills of NC, Strantz's mass shaping seems to have interrupted the natural drainage patterns of the land enough that sheet-drainage to a large extent fails to take place.   Instead, water flows down from the top of slopes natural and man made into bowls that stay soggy all the time, such as through the narrow gap between the mounds on the very first hole, or the two bowls that make up the entire fairway of the 16th hole.
 
Many of the bunkers have been built with such freakishly steep fronting slopes that they are seemingly permanently filled with rivulets from washouts and have to require constant maintenance attention.   The bunkers themselves are so extensively pervasive that in many cases they become preferred landing zones for better players with their hardpacked sand, a surface that provides little challenge for top golfers yet gives hackers fits.
 
Other faults include the number of lengthy forced carries dictated by the design choices.   For a weaker player, the course would be a nightmare, even played at the 5880 yard tees.   Despite the width of many holes, lost ball locations loom large throughout.
 
In a way, it is a study in "maximalism", where almost every hole is lacking restraint in terms of man-made features juxtaposed with natural attributes.   I suspect the ground pre-construction was good enough to have yielded something perhaps with perhaps less visual histrionics and more excellent golf.   
 
At some point over the past twenty years, golf has become less a sporting endeavor and more "entertainment", and certainly as an architect, Mike Strantz was a Master Showman who will be missed and whose best work will live on and even be studied to understand where he effectively stretched the envelope beyond the common and mundane of the art. 
 
However, on what might have been his greatest canvas, I can't help but feel that style took precedence over substance, and his lack of restraint on an already challenging, rugged site has created a course that is wonderful to look at, but one in which I can't imagine much enjoying repeated plays, even given the horizontal flexibility that Strantz admittedly built in.
 
This is a course that seemingly had the potential to be a Top 20 Modern with a little more attention to fundamental details and a bit more discipline in execution.   Instead of being another Kingsley Club, it is closer to something Desmond Muirhead might have delivered on his wackiest day.

[Jud_T]

Mike,

Great color.  Seems like a love/hate kinda guy.  I know some locals who think it's a dogtrack.....   I suppose it's worth checking out at least once, but perhaps not at the expense of Pinehurst #2, Pine Needles, Dormie Club or Forest Creek?

[Mike Sweeney]

 
This is a course that seemingly had the potential to be a Top 20 Modern with a little more attention to fundamental details and a bit more discipline in execution.   Instead of being another Kingsley Club, it is closer to something Desmond Muirhead might have delivered on his wackiest day.

As a former member of Stone Harbor Golf Club, you have no idea what you are talking about. 

The great thing about Tobacco Road is I agree with probably 80-90% of what you said, AND it is a course that I really want to play a second time to see if my enthusiasm is justified. 

[Brent Hutto]

I'd rather play Pine Needles than Tobacco Road solely for the easier and more pleasant walk. Aside from the slow play and somewhat difficult walk the Road is a far more interesting and fun course shot-value-wise than any place I've played in the area. IMO Mid-Pines and Southern Pines are not good enough to win out over Tobacco Road even with their wonderfully walkable routing and old-fashioned feel.

P.S. I must also mention that in winter or if it has rained recently Pine Needles will be much firmer and less mucky than Tobacco Road, which is a big plus. Mid-Pines less so but still probably drains as well or better. Not sure about Southern Pines, probably similar conditions in wet weather to Mid-Pines (not ideal).

[Sean_A]

Well, between Mike and Brent my two biggest concerns, that of the awkward walk and either poor drainage or over-watered conditions, are covered.  Still, like Mike S, I find Tobacco Road compelling because of the variety and fun.  Given the cost of golf down that neck of the woods, it is the only course in the area I played which I would love to see again.  Mind you I skipped it last year due to a hefty green fee over $100. 

Mike C

Could you run through and write briefly about the specific shots you had concerns over?  I know you mentioned the carries from the tee and yes, 18 is a bit much given how accurately it must be placed.  Yes, the wide and narrow greens are perhaps over-done for the par 3s - #s 6, 14 & 17 of this ilk.  That said. #6 is all-world because of the width of tees and #14 is a superb if very demanding shot. 

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,
One thing that is important to note:  I was in NC from Dec. 20 to the 28th about an hour from TR, and played on the 22nd, 23rd, and 26th.  I have to say that the ground, including golf courses, was absolutely without question the wettest that I have ever seen it.  My parents have lived in the same house since 1964, and I've never seen the yard in that condition.  Two of the three golf courses I played were absolute quagmires.  I won't vouch for the drainage at TR, but the times I've been there it hasn't seemed to be a problem.  You caught some very, very unusual conditions in Piedmont NC.

As to the course itself (disclaimer: I LOVE it!) the completely valid criticism of TR centers around the incredibly high slope numbers relative to the course rating.  When a track has a slope of 142 from a set of tees that measure 6300 and the course rating is only 70.8, there is a valid GCA concern about the playability of the course.  I don't hit the ball very far, but I hit it pretty straight, and I've never had a bad round there, but I've played there with some both good and not-so-good golfers who just had a miserable time.  

Given that I love the place and that I've played well there, I'm not at all sure that I would like to play it frequently, which is how many of the locals feel.  My brother lives in Greensboro, and he and buddies go to Pinehurst all the time; they almost never go to the Road.

All of THAT said, Tobacco Road is wonderful art.  The imagination and artistry that went into that place are just stunning to me, and for that reason alone it is a treasure.  It isn't a Top whatever course (for a long time I was sure it was, but I've changed my mind), and it isn't by far my favorite Strantz course.  But it is way cool in its way, and not like any other golf course I've ever seen.

[Wade Whitehead]

Reaction to Tobacco Road nearly always resembles a "I've never seen anything quite like that."

It's visceral in a way other places are not.

WW

[Anthony Gray]

  I love quirk, but I just did not get it. The sand in some of the greenside waste areas played similiar to hard pan. I would suggest a first time player to move up a set of tees so the forced carries won't dominate your tee balls. I love the different tees on the par threes, adds great variety to the set up.

  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

I have only played there once, during a Dixie Cup a few years ago.  We played in September or October and I'm with A.G., it was nice and dry and firm.  I suspect it doesn't drain well once a long period of drain starts.

I have become a short hitter too    and there were three carries out there that killed me starting with #1 where I pushed my tee shot over toward the right hill and never found my ball.  At #2 my tee shot hit the berm on the far side of the road and kicked back.  On #18 I was barely up but right and never found the ball.  

I should have been playing one tee up but was in a match against Mike Benham   so we played at about 6700 yards.

But there were so many fun shots out there!  I would love to play again, loved that punchbowl green on #13!

[Jason Topp]

Mike:

Thanks for sharing your view.  As to the drainage issues - I will leave that to those that know more about them.  I didn't notice many problems when visting in early April despite playing the day after a heavy rain.

I played 36 there with a 20 handicap player and worried about playability for him.  He had surprisingly little difficulty navigating around the course despite refusing to move up a set of tees as was stongly suggested by the starter.  My impression from that day was that the course was much more playable for a high handicap person than it appears at first glance. The fairways are very wide and, despite their intimindating appearance, the forced carriers are really quite short.  Black Mesa is an example of a good course that seemed much more punishing on the high handicap player than Tobacco Road.

I still am not sure of how highly I regard Tobacco Road.  My guess is that the course becomes less interesting with repeat exposure because many of the challenges are repeated over and over on the course.  Many of the par threes are similar in design - short shots to very wide and shallow greens.  Many of the tee shots are blind but to big fairways with pretty good definition regarding where you want to hit the ball.  I thought the par fives were excellent.

I would definitely recommend you try the course at a more favorable time of year and see if your impressions change.  I hope to do so as well some day.
 

[Anthony Gray]

  Did anybody find the greens slow? I only played it once but I could never seem to get the ball to the hole. Might have been just the time of the year.

  Anthony

[Brent Hutto]

The wetness and conditioning issues in my recollection were primarily limited to a few areas near drainage basins. Those areas tend to collect and hold water (duh! they're drainage depressions) and if they're the wrong distance from the green they also collect layups, punchouts and/or mishits. So you end up with half a dozen shots per round from tight, thin, wet lies filled with divots. Often with funky little unlevel or cuppy lies.

Regarding the high handicapper, I think that's an element of all the Strantz courses I've played (Tobacco Road, Caledonia, True Blue). The visual intimidation often inclines the weaker player to aim away from the line that's de rigueur for the better playing wishing to make birdies. And surprisingly often there is a ton of easily reachable bailout area when he does so. Finally, there is enough interest in many of the green-site contours to offer a novel third (or whatever) shot after the bail-out/layup has been executed.

Also at Tobacco Road and True Blue, perhaps less so at Caledonia, the waste areas that Dr. Gray likens to hardpan are much easier for the high-marker to advance his ball from than a typical fluffy sand bunker or a pot-bunker with high walls. I might not catch the ball cleanly or hit an on-target shot off sandy hardpan but I can get the ball in the air reliably with a mid-length club and advance it a substantial ways more-or-less toward the green almost every time. Compare that with catching a hybrid or 6-iron a bit fat from a standard fluffy bunker with even a modest lip. Or compare it to a forced carry over water!

I could make the same observation to a lesser extent about the much reviled "waste areas" on the Ocean Course at Kiawah by the way. Another course that plays less hard than it looks to the high handicapper willing to move up a set of tees and bail out early and often. I will say that Dye's Ocean Course has many green complexes that reject indifferent shots (Dornoch anyone?) while Strantz's Tobacco Road has a great many which offer varying degrees of ball-gathering. So the final scorecard of a modest bogey golfer using suitably non-aggressive tactics can end up in much better shape at the latter than the former...

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike - With all due respect, you played that course at the worst possible time to fairly judge it for conditioning and drainage. The fairway grass is dormant and the area has been soaked with rain for weeks on end. So, before you make a final decision, you should make plans to visit again when the course has a better chance to fairly present itself.

I disagree with you about the course being a nightmare for high-handicappers. I've played the course many times, with players ranging from a +2 to a 20 handicap and everyone of them had no trouble with the forced carries if playing from the appropriate tees. I have not been with anyone who lost more than one or two balls on the course and most of those were in the pond on #14. While it is not a course that one would normally play for score, a number of my friends who have played TR have shot their career low rounds there... me included!

Playing the course once is simply not enough to render a fair assessment to this complicated and unusual design. It has been my experience that most golfers who play TR a second time find more to love and less to dislike... which, in itself, is a great compliment to the unique appeal of the course as I have visited numerous "great" courses that generate LESS excitement for me with repeated play. I hope you will have an opportunity to visit TR again when the course doesn't have everything stacked against it.

By the way... Tobacco Road is one of only a handful of courses that I get truly excited about playing. After my first visit there I couldn't get the course out of my mind for weeks. Black Mesa and The Kingsley Club have had similar effects on me, but not to the extent of TR.

[Sean_A]

I have only played there once, during a Dixie Cup a few years ago.  We played in September or October and I'm with A.G., it was nice and dry and firm.  I suspect it doesn't drain well once a long period of drain starts.

I have become a short hitter too    and there were three carries out there that killed me starting with #1 where I pushed my tee shot over toward the right hill and never found my ball.  At #2 my tee shot hit the berm on the far side of the road and kicked back.  On #18 I was barely up but right and never found the ball.  

I should have been playing one tee up but was in a match against Mike Benham   so we played at about 6700 yards.

But there were so many fun shots out there!  I would love to play again, loved that punchbowl green on #13!

Loads of people mention the 2nd as long carry.  From the forward part of the back tee it can only be about 180 yards - if that.  So, the way I see it, there are two forced carries of any substance with #18 being the other one.  #1 doesn't require much of a carry at all and there are forward tees which nearly eliminate the carry altogether.  In truth, the carry can be totally eliminated on #2.  Come to think of it, #18 has a forward tee which makes the carry maybe 125 yards.  Shit, even #14 has a far forward tee which makes the carry doable.  Still, I would have liked to see a bit of bailout area short left of the green.  Personally, I think the carry issue is blown out of proportion by guys who can't take the bruise to their ego by moving up tees.  

Now the hard sand, that is another issue.  I think most handicap players would find these shots difficult, but they usually are the PLAYABLE hazard for the failed heroic shot.

Ciao

[Jay Flemma]

I have only played there once, during a Dixie Cup a few years ago.  We played in September or October and I'm with A.G., it was nice and dry and firm.  I suspect it doesn't drain well once a long period of drain starts.

I have become a short hitter too    and there were three carries out there that killed me starting with #1 where I pushed my tee shot over toward the right hill and never found my ball.  At #2 my tee shot hit the berm on the far side of the road and kicked back.  On #18 I was barely up but right and never found the ball.  

I should have been playing one tee up but was in a match against Mike Benham   so we played at about 6700 yards.

But there were so many fun shots out there!  I would love to play again, loved that punchbowl green on #13!

Bill, that's not a forced carry on 1.  You can lay up short of the mounds and hit your next shot through the notch.

At 2, it;s also not a forced carry, you can play the long way around the hazards.

18 is the only murderous drive, but as it's the last hole, I see no problem with it requiring your best drive of the day.

[Brent Hutto]

Now the hard sand, that is another issue.  I think most handicap players would find these shots difficult, but they usually are the PLAYABLE hazard for the failed heroic shot.

Exactly. And from the bogey golfer's perspective, a shot that gives you a fair opportunity to advance the ball while making it extremely difficult to execute a perfect shot is a wonderfully gauged punishment for attempting and failing a high degree of difficulty tee shot. Large, flattish bunkers with ungroomed hardpan and the ability to ground ones club are an excellent way to accomplish this.

[Anthony Gray]

Now the hard sand, that is another issue.  I think most handicap players would find these shots difficult, but they usually are the PLAYABLE hazard for the failed heroic shot.

Exactly. And from the bogey golfer's perspective, a shot that gives you a fair opportunity to advance the ball while making it extremely difficult to execute a perfect shot is a wonderfully gauged punishment for attempting and failing a high degree of difficulty tee shot. Large, flattish bunkers with ungroomed hardpan and the ability to ground ones club are an excellent way to accomplish this.

  It is the greenside hard sand that is a problem. How do you hit that shot?

  Anthony

[Brent Hutto]

Now the hard sand, that is another issue.  I think most handicap players would find these shots difficult, but they usually are the PLAYABLE hazard for the failed heroic shot.

Exactly. And from the bogey golfer's perspective, a shot that gives you a fair opportunity to advance the ball while making it extremely difficult to execute a perfect shot is a wonderfully gauged punishment for attempting and failing a high degree of difficulty tee shot. Large, flattish bunkers with ungroomed hardpan and the ability to ground ones club are an excellent way to accomplish this.

  It is the greenside hard sand that is a problem. How do you hit that shot?

  Anthony

Simple. Take your highest lofted club, address the ball with the face square or even slightly closed to take off some of the bounce, swing hard down and through. Then pick the ball up when it rolls back to your feet, concede the hole and move on.

[Jud_T]

  It is the greenside hard sand that is a problem. How do you hit that shot?

  Anthony

Simple. Take your highest lofted club, address the ball with the face square or even slightly closed to take off some of the bounce, swing hard down and through. Then pick the ball up when it rolls back to your feet, concede the hole and move on.

CLASSIC

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks for the post Mike.

Here's an alternative view....

Let me first start off by saying that the couple rounds that I played at TR were in the winter and the course was all carry....no roll whatsoever.  My post may be different if I was playing the firm and fast TR.  It's something I would like to see in future visits, which means I probably need to go a different time of year....

I'm in the camp that TR is much easier than all the reports about the place.  The first round I played it was pretty intimidated standing on the first tee and after reading so much about "the top 10 hardest courses in America," I figured this was going to be one of the hardest challenges yet.

However, with the course being only 6554 from the back tees, and all carry, I was shocked at how easy the course played.  IMO, with all carry conditions, better players should be looking to rip this course apart.  

If you're spraying it off the tees, yeah you can shoot 100 in a hurry, but once you get past the intimidating visuals, just go ahead a hit it down the huge fairways....there's plenty of room out there.  Once in the fairway, even from the back tees, most of the holes require only a mid to short iron.

In regards to the greens, most are so huge and undulating that you can subtract 50% of the putting area right off the bat.  Most of the putting surfaces aren't even in play....and with a short iron in your hand you should have a great birdie chance on most holes.  I would add that 3/4 of the greens have the ability to set the flags on portions that feed the ball right to the hole. (ex: #3 middle flag, #7 front flag, or back right flag, and any flag on #13 just to name a few off the top of my head) I know it's easier said than done, but if your a good player and you've got a wet green with a short iron, once again, you need to be hitting it close.  

Someone please tell me....when TR plays firm and fast, do the greens hold?  The answer may change my opinion on scoring capabilities because I could see where a firm #13 green could be a nightmare to try and get it close.

[Anthony Gray]

Now the hard sand, that is another issue.  I think most handicap players would find these shots difficult, but they usually are the PLAYABLE hazard for the failed heroic shot.

Exactly. And from the bogey golfer's perspective, a shot that gives you a fair opportunity to advance the ball while making it extremely difficult to execute a perfect shot is a wonderfully gauged punishment for attempting and failing a high degree of difficulty tee shot. Large, flattish bunkers with ungroomed hardpan and the ability to ground ones club are an excellent way to accomplish this.

  It is the greenside hard sand that is a problem. How do you hit that shot?

  Anthony

Simple. Take your highest lofted club, address the ball with the face square or even slightly closed to take off some of the bounce, swing hard down and through. Then pick the ball up when it rolls back to your feet, concede the hole and move on.

  Brent


  That does beet nailing the guy on the other side of the green in the back of the head. Man have you been placed on my must read every post list. Did you get my check for the book yet? Wait until the 20th to cash it.

  Anthony

[Brent Hutto]

That does beet nailing the guy on the other side of the green in the back of the head.

Yeah, I have that shot too. Same as before just put the ball forward in your stance.

And about the check...I have an "associate" dropping by to see you...he'll expect a cash transaction when he gets there...you'll know what he's there for when you see him.

[George Pazin]

Tobacco Road is possibly the most original, artistic, and creative golf course built in the past 30 years, and for style points alone Tobacco Road gets all 10's.

This just strikes me as a bit of an overstatement, given the tremendous number of special courses built in the last 30 years. I have played next to none of the other prime contenders, but I wouldn't even place it above The Rawls Course or Black Mesa in any of your 3 categories, and I've played all three.

My experience at TR was pretty bizarre. I played it with my girlfriend (now wife) and a pair of brothers we got paired up with. To date, it is my wife's only golf course played, which is bizarre in and of itself. I played the first 4 holes with her from the shortest tees, and then worked my way back every few holes. Played 17 and 18 from the tips. The course plays flat out bizarro if you have any kind of length and are playing from the shortest tees - I think I played 8 iron/wedge on the first two holes. My lob wedge on 3 was knocked down by overhanging trees. The tee shot on 4 had a tree RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE TEE (to date, the single most stupid shot I have seen on any golf course - including Wolf Creek, Matt! ). That's when I gave up playing her tees. The tee shot on 17 was the weirdest drop shot I can recall playing. The tee shot on 18 from the tips is still the single most intimidating shot I've ever played, but I had no business being back there on either hole, I was just screwing around.

But that's kind of how I felt about the course - it's meant for screwing around, not really playing golf (one must balance this with the understanding that two of the things I value most in a golf course are the walk and the playability of recovery shots). I made one of the wildest putts of my life on the 16th green, it was about a 15 footer that broke about 15 feet (it was pretty much a semi-circle).

Now I will say, my thoughts on golf have changed quite a bit since that day in '99. And the course did actually lead me to this website, so I will always think fondly of it because of that. Mike was obviously a gifted artist, and more importantly, a tremendous person. But the golf course itself strikes me as entirely overrated by most of the posters on here.

Would I play it again? Sure, in a heartbeat. In fact, I'd love to play it with one or two of the posters on here who love it so dearly, to try to understand their sentiment. There were a lot of fun holes and fun shots (though I will say #9 is one of the weirder holes I've played). But I wouldn't go out of my way to play it again.

[Scott Weersing]

Reaction to Tobacco Road nearly always resembles a "I've never seen anything quite like that."

It's visceral in a way other places are not.

WW

I have not played Tobacco Road but I like the adventure presented by Mike Strantz's course, Royal New Kent.

Royal New Kent has some of the same problems or quirks as Tobacco Road. There are holes on both courses that you have not seen anywhere before. There are lots of forced carries. Both have places that don't drain well. (It has been a very wet year up here in Virginia too) It will be quite a while for the pendulum to swing back from minimialism to maximialism.

[A.G._Crockett]

Honestly, I don't think TR has significant drainage problems.  There is no way to overstate how wet Piedmont NC was around Christmas.  My brother had told me that some course might not even be playable; that was an exaggeration, but not by much.  It was, as I said, the wettest I've ever seen the area, and I go back a LONG way.