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Mike Cirba

Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« on: January 05, 2010, 09:18:44 PM »
Anyone who has spent any time researching golf course architectural history knows that it is sometimes a minefield of conflicting, inconclusive, and even contradictory evidence.   The best we can do is try to digest this evidence using our own discernment and related knowledge and come to our own conclusions.

But, I came across an article recently that has set new standards for me in terms of muddying the waters related to the historical attribution of a great course.   Unfortunately, I don't have the article scanned at present, but a Special Dispatch from Pinehurst, NC by an otherwise seemingly knowledgeable unnamed author wrote the following that was published in the March 12th, 1912 Philadelphia Press.

You almost have to wonder if he somehow knew he be perplexing historians a century later, so tortured is his description of the architectural origins;

"There are three distinct eighteen hole courses here, which is true of no other place in the world except the "Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews".   A fourth has been staked out and will be in readiness next spring.   The most famous of these courses is the No. 2 course, laid out by Donald Ross and Walter J. Travis.  They did not plan it together, but each coincided with the other's suggestions.  The only change suggested by Travis and which was adopted was the omission of cross bunkers."

Can anyone tell me what they think the author is saying Travis did?

Do we have an interpreter in the house?   :-\ ::) ;D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 09:21:04 PM by Mike Cirba »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2010, 09:29:32 PM »
hell Mike you little newbie....welcome back!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Cirba

Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2010, 09:32:11 PM »
hell Mike you little newbie....welcome back!

Paul,

I really like being a "newbie".   I feel so young and innocent and uncorrupted...like a virgin!  ;D

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 09:35:34 PM »
seriously, from what you have supplied....it seems they meshed well, although Travis made a request which was granted.

sometimes things work, and my hope is that this was the case here.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 09:36:44 PM »
I am drawing from memory here so I could be way wrong BUT

isn't there some confusion with Ross and Travis at Camden CC of Dixie Cup fame?  Maybe there was more going on there in the Carolinas with those two that we've previously known.

edit: Here is an old thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,19784.0/
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 09:40:44 PM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM »
hell Mike you little newbie....welcome back!

Paul,

I really like being a "newbie".   I feel so young and innocent and uncorrupted...like a virgin!  ;D

Enjoy it, but get over it....you're needed elsewhere!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 11:09:16 AM »
Mike,

Maybe you've already seen this, but Travis isn't shy about telling the world what he offered Donald. It's a good read, start to finish. 

"For some time I had been pouring into Donald's ears my ideas; in point of fact, I had urged him to take up the laying out of courses..."-WJT

"So I suggested that Donald Ross and I should go over the course together and, without conferring, each propose a separate plan. I knew what the result would be".-WJT

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Cirba

Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 11:26:04 AM »
Jim,

That's an awesome article.  Thanks!

I had seen quotes taken from it previously, but had never read it in full.    What got me thinking about Travis and Pinehurst was re-reading Brad's book in preparation for my recent visit to Pinehurst where he mentions that Travis claimed some credit but that the audit trail was missing.   The 1912 article I found last winter (quoted above) that claims both men laid out the original #2 that opened in 1907 was the first I'd seen anything near contemporaneous.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 11:29:53 AM by Mike Cirba »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 12:01:16 PM »
Jim

Thanks for posting, great to read. The heading in the article refers to it as a part of an autobiography. Did it only appear in American Golfer or did it come out in book form ?

Niall

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 12:30:43 PM »
Mike, Who do you think Travis was referring to here, Barker, Ross, or someone else?

"In those days Willie Dunn had ceased to figure and his successor, although credited with laying out some hundreds of courses all over the country, really had no genius for the work."

Niall,
There is this:   http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1917/ag181e.pdf
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Cirba

Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 01:01:03 PM »
Jim,

I hesitate to speculate given Travis' critical comments, but I'm guessing he'd probably be referring to Bendelow or perhaps Alex Findlay, although I believe Bendelow dwarfed Findlay in sheer numbers.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 01:57:30 PM »
Mike,
I could not say with any certainty that this is true, more like an impression, but it seems Bob Labbance could just have easily entitled his book  "The Old Pr**k" , brown paper wrapper included.  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Cirba

Re: Attribution Confusion, Why The Intrusion?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 02:23:53 PM »
Mike,
I could not say with any certainty that this is true, more like an impression, but it seems Bob Labbance could just have easily entitled his book  "The Old Pr**k" , brown paper wrapper included.  ;D

Jim,

He certainly had a very favorable impression of his own opinion!  ;)

Perhaps he was that generation's version of Patrick Mucci....Attila the Hun in print, and a soft-hearted sweetheart in person!   :-\ ;D

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