99% of Florida Golf is a Doak 0

[Patrick_Mucci]

You have to look better than that, there are numerous courses at that site that are pretty dry.  I may have misled you into believing that there was no water anywhere.

Jim,

What JC doesn't get is that those people who live in those communities with golf courses want water.
They want the "feel" of a tropical environment, they want the view, the look of water from their homes and when they play golf.
Homes/lots on the water or with water views usually command a premium
Golfers are on the golf course for 4 hours, homeowners are on the property 24/7, they have guests, they entertain and their home is the center of their lives, hence, they want those water views, they want their golf courses to have water, lot's of water to give their community and golf course to have that tropical look

When someone spends $ 250,000, $ 500,000, 1,000,000 or more on a home, they don't care about losing three $ 3 golf balls.
They want value in their home, and water views ADD VALUE

Having worked with 4 to 6 State and Federal agencies in Florida, agencies involved in water management, I can assure JC that creating, designing and building golf coures on sites with water, or adjacent to water isn't the piece of cake he alludes to.
And creating water features isn't as easy as he would have you believe

One shouldn't compare golf courses at resort locations or within residential communities with golf courses at private clubs, they serve different masters,, have different uses, different users and different cultures.  Compare Apples to Apples, Oranges to Oranges,
Not apples to Orangutans[/size]

[JC Jones]

You have to look better than that, there are numerous courses at that site that are pretty dry.  I may have misled you into believing that there was no water anywhere.

Jim,

What JC doesn't get is that those people who live in those communities with golf courses want water.
They want the "feel" of a tropical environment, they want the view, the look of water from their homes and when they play golf.
Homes/lots on the water or with water views usually command a premium
Golfers are on the golf course for 4 hours, homeowners are on the property 24/7, they have guests, they entertain and their home is the center of their lives, hence, they want those water views, they want their golf courses to have water, lot's of water to give their community and golf course to have that tropical look

When someone spends $ 250,000, $ 500,000, 1,000,000 or more on a home, they don't care about losing three $ 3 golf balls.
They want value in their home, and water views ADD VALUE

Having worked with 4 to 6 State and Federal agencies in Florida, agencies involved in water management, I can assure JC that creating, designing and building golf coures on sites with water, or adjacent to water isn't the piece of cake he alludes to.
And creating water features isn't as easy as he would have you believe

One shouldn't compare golf courses at resort locations or within residential communities with golf courses at private clubs, they serve different masters,, have different uses, different users and different cultures.  Compare Apples to Apples, Oranges to Oranges,
Not apples to Orangutans

Pat,

Please point to where I said anything about what anyone wanted?

Please point to where I said it was a "piece of cake" to build a golf course on a swamp?

You continually bring up this difference between private clubs and resort or residential courses.  I have no idea why and I have no idea what it has to do with anything. 

You are projecting and you are trying to have a conversation that I am not having. 

[Kyle Harris]

Somewhere in a Barn in Chester County, PA a patrician of the Philadelphia Landed Gentry is slowly muttering to himself...

"Big World Theory of Golf Architecture."

[JC Jones]

Somewhere in a Barn in Chester County, PA a patrician of the Philadelphia Landed Gentry is slowly muttering to himself...

"Big World Theory of Golf Architecture."

Absolutely, I've said in many threads now that taste in GCA is entirely subjective.

[David Lott]

Only played a few but a closer statement would be 99% are not a Doak 0. Golf courses come in all forms and not all sites are blessed with cifftops, ocean views and great soils. Learn to respect what some architects do with shit soil, flat sites and even more so if they are on tight budgets.

Amen. Plus a little respect for the people who play on these courses, without whom the game would wither and die.

[JC Jones]

Only played a few but a closer statement would be 99% are not a Doak 0. Golf courses come in all forms and not all sites are blessed with cifftops, ocean views and great soils. Learn to respect what some architects do with shit soil, flat sites and even more so if they are on tight budgets.

Amen. Plus a little respect for the people who play on these courses, without whom the game would wither and die.

Who said anything about not respecting the people or the architects?  Pretty ridiculous leap there.

[Jason Connor]

I'll be back in Florida a week from today trying to change that.

Is there a project in Central Florida?  If so perhaps I'm getting a late Christmas present. 

[John Moore II]

I've played a few courses in Florida, and while they might be un-natural, none of them seemed way out of the ordinary, contrived, plain wierd or whatever. I can't say of any of the courses that I played down there were 0's. Limited sample of course, but certainly 99% of all coruses in Florida are not 0's.

[Jonathan Webb]

Mountain Lake is one of my favorites.

[Jeff Spittel]

Perhaps this will come as a shock to some, but there are people in this world who enjoy the simple pleasure of playing golf independent of the course's architectural merit. 

[cary lichtenstein]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

On the intelligence quotient test, 0-10, that statement is a Doak 0.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Doak is wrong from time to time.

[Tom_Doak]

Tiger:  You're wrong from time to time.  This is my post from earlier in the thread:

JC:  I've got to agree with Jay.  I must have reviewed 30 courses in Florida for The Confidential Guide, and I don't remember handing out any zeroes there ... mostly 5's and 6's.  Of course those were the cream of the crop, a lot of courses in Fla. would be 2's and 3's ... but so would a lot of courses in Chicago and Michigan.

Was I wrong?

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

The whole FL things boils down to this -- when it's freakin cold people head to FL -- the issue when looked at the flip side is this -- when weather IS NOT the issue -- is there any real motivation to head to FL for edge-of-your-seat compelling golf of the highest order?

Look, I understand thoroughly, there are some people who could give a rats ass attention to anything that is architecturally compelling. They just want to play golf -- doesn't matter if there's a layout that is boring or flawed -- they are happy as clams doing it. By all means, I would tell these folks -- knock yourself out and enjoy what you are doing.

The simple reality is that FL likely has fewer zero courses than many other states I have been. Doak is quite correct there are hordes of layout that would be in the 2-3 range he outlined previously. No doubt you have a few higher up than that -- but even the best of the best from FL could not sniff the likes of a Ballyneal or Rock Creek or Kingsley Club or Black Mesa, etc, etc, etc.

[JC Jones]

No doubt you have a few higher up than that -- but even the best of the best from FL could not sniff the likes of a Ballyneal or Rock Creek or Kingsley Club or Black Mesa, etc, etc, etc.

Coming from the guy who used a hyperbolic statement to start the thread, this takes the cake.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

I stand by what I said -- the really elite courses I have played are a good bit beyond the best of what I have played in FL.

No hyperbole there -- just my opinion.

If someone believes Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Kingsley and Black Mesa are chop liver courses then they have a totally different understanding of compelling architecture than I do.

By the way -- this thread isn't mine -- it's yours. Mine was a bit different slant.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
There are 18 million people (1.8 million golfers) living in Florida that might disagree with you.

As it stands, there aren't very many out-of-staters who agree with you either.

[JC Jones]

JC:

I stand by what I said -- the really elite courses I have played are a good bit beyond the best of what I have played in FL.

No hyperbole there -- just my opinion.

If someone believes Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Kingsley and Black Mesa are chop liver courses then they have a totally different understanding of compelling architecture than I do.

By the way -- this thread isn't mine -- it's yours. Mine was a bit different slant.

Matt, I meant that the classification of your statement as hyperbolic was coming from the guy (me) who started the thread using a hyperbolic statement.

I agree that Kingsley is phenomenal.  I love it.  I'm not sure I'd be willing to say that Seminole "can't sniff" Kingsley.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

Look, I agree -- there might be 3-4 courses in ALL of FL that can make a solid case against the likes of the courses I mentioned. But even with Seminole -- Kingsley has the more compelling land site and for me the land site is 60% of the equation.

FL is just dead flat and any type of design that comes from such a setting will have inordinate amount of issues to overcome. In many cases, architects have overdosed layouts with an abundance of water that flanks so many holes that it becomes redunant to the max.

Let me say this for me -- if I had ten rounds to play -- I'd take Kingsley 7 times over 3 for Seminole. Others may see it diffrently. So be it -- for them.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

In February I'd take Seminole 10, Kingsley 0.  In August, the other way around...

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

Well said ..

I'd take just about anything in FL over what's doable in Jersey now.

Looking forward to the PGA Show next week and checking out the recommendations made to me by a few people on this site.

[Jud_T]

Sounds like the Florida bar is set pretty low for Monsieurs Doak and Coore! 

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

Just answer this -- if weather is not a factor -- where would you play between the likes of the courses I just mentioned?

I think the answer for 90% of people is self evident.

[Jud_T]

I haven't played Seminole yet, but I agree that it would be difficult to beat Kingsley in my eyes, but I'm hardly impartial when it comes to Kingsley...However, I am swayed by the argument about multiple plays and TOC effect.....

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,

In February I'd take Seminole 10, Kingsley 0.  In August, the other way around...

That could be because Seminole is CLOSED in August....