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Cristian

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2010, 07:44:45 PM »

Tom,

a lot of the debate has been about rating PB after just one or two rounds. You having played 10,  did you appreciate it progressively more after multiple plays and more so than other courses?

What's the use of a rating of PB which can only be appreciated after multiple plays if 99% of people go there only once or twice?


Cristian,

Isn't that true of almost every private course ?


Maybe not, maybe some courses reveil more of their greatness at first play. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good thing if a course can grow on you after multiple plays, but it is a bonus, it should not be the basis of a considerably higher rating.

(For the record: I have not played PB)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 07:58:21 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Matt_Ward

Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2010, 07:59:14 PM »
Cristian:

C'mon - with all due respect, are you serious or what ?

I can't name any course that can reveal itself better in one round than one could gain from multiple rounds.

The more you play the more subtle elements -- especially if you play a place like TOC, Pinehurst #2, to name just two and likely a host of others would show more with each round and facing the fullest range of conditions, times of year, etc, etc.


Cristian

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2010, 08:05:36 PM »
Cristian:

C'mon - with all due respect, are you serious or what ?

I can't name any course that can reveal itself better in one round than one could gain from multiple rounds.

The more you play the more subtle elements -- especially if you play a place like TOC, Pinehurst #2, to name just two and likely a host of others would show more with each round and facing the fullest range of conditions, times of year, etc, etc.



You misunderstood, I did not mean better at first play than after multiple rounds, I just meant that some courses may need less play to show their (relative) quality than PB!

I still assume though that magazines publish ratings to inform their readership on the quality to expect from a course when they make the effort to go there. If the first experience would be considerably inferior to what one would expect from the rating, than I think the rating would be invalid for its purpose.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2010, 08:17:17 PM »
Matt:

Seriously, you don't think there are ANY courses which make a great first impression, and then when you go back they're not as interesting as you remembered?

I think a lot of courses fall into that camp.  Places like Old Head and Torrey Pines would be one type ... you remember the clifftops and forget the lack of compelling holes, until you go back again.  Strong championship courses would be another type ... you respect them for kicking your butt the first time around, but eventually you get bored with the fact that every hole seems the same.

Or, you play great the first time, and then not so great when you go back.  [Not picking on you personally there, but we both know raters whose opinion depends on how they played.]


Cristian:

I played Pebble Beach a lot of times when I was a teenager, and it was a lot more affordable ... I was there every other year from ages 13-19.  Because of that, I'm not sure I can answer your question; I knew a lot more about golf course architecture at 19 than I did at 13.  On the other hand, I have more respect than most players for holes like #3 or #16, because the first couple of times I played them, the ravine hazard that so many dismiss today was very much a factor for my game.  That whole green complex on #16 is one of the most beautiful features on the golf course, and nobody ever mentions it; same for the deep hollow to the left of #9.


Sean_A

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2010, 08:22:08 PM »
Well, to some degree aren't all the uber greats over-rated?  Even if there is a near unanimous concensus on the top whatever, how much better are these courses from the not uber greats?  I have never believed the gulf to be that great and in some cases I don't know why there is a gulf at all - I often find this with championship courses. I firmly believe that raters are seriously influenced by history (both of the club and of previous rankings) and the position of clubs in the golf culture hierarchy.  

I spose this is why I  am far more interested in playing my favourites.  Much of the time one can get a great course for far less than the uber greats.  Like Scott suggests, price holds people back from really learning these courses as well as we might depsite Matt's unrealistic view of multiple plays.  Besides, there are some I would listen to with one play and some I wouldn't pay much attention to after 10 plays. Sure, the info through experience is important, but the real power is in how we interprete the info we have.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 08:24:35 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2010, 08:48:46 PM »
Sean,

I don't think that NGLA is "lesser" of a golf course because Seminole or CPC are great courses.

I don't think there's a limit on the number of great golf courses.

One can always find a blemish on a golf course, every great course probably has their share, but, like Cindy Crawford, one blemish doesn't diminish the quality of the entire golf course.

I think some use those non-substantive blemishes and try to expand them to broad universal pronouncements/evaluations.

I'm not a great fan of the 18th hole at CPC, but, I don't think, what I perceive is a blemish, is so significant that it overrides the quality of the entire golf course or the other 17 holes, and, I don't think # 18 is a bad hole, only that by comparison, it's not as great/good as its peers.

It's when the blemishes become systemic that the golf course might begin to suffer, but, I don't see any substantive, systemic blemishes at PBGC.


Can anyone identify the alleged systemic  blemishes at PBGC ?

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2010, 09:19:49 PM »
I skimmed through these posts...sorry if I missed one with the same opinion.

What Pebble may lack in any given area is easily accounted for in its history and "tip-of-the-tongue" familiarity to nearly any American or, for that matter, any golfer or relative of a golfer throughout the world.

Far too often we forget the intangible nature of golf courses — esteem and legacy are easily scored points that make up for nit-picking elsewhere.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2010, 09:30:45 PM »
I skimmed through these posts...sorry if I missed one with the same opinion.

What Pebble may lack in any given area is easily accounted for in its history and "tip-of-the-tongue" familiarity to nearly any American or, for that matter, any golfer or relative of a golfer throughout the world.

Far too often we forget the intangible nature of golf courses — esteem and legacy are easily scored points that make up for nit-picking elsewhere.



Dahm Forrest...I like it when the sounds/thoughts are over my head....seriously, it's calming and reflective! and I agree!





paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2010, 09:54:09 PM »
Oh....and btw....Pebble will be much better when they reverse #9 thru #13...as I've said before.

It's a no brainer waiting for a brain.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2010, 10:19:45 PM »
Maybe someone here can find the thread a few years go when I related my conversation with Jack Neville. In summary, he basically told me that laying out the course at Pebble Beach was tremendously "easy" because there was virtually no way they could go wrong given the great land and incredible cliffs. He was very humble about his role even though I have always had it on good authority that Mr. Neville was likely the most involved in the routing.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2010, 11:29:47 PM »
This is what happens when your internet connection goes down...people answer your question hours ago.  Here are my continuations, for those interested.  And, for edification, my question "Is it a CONSISTENTLY great course?" was not meant to be a loaded question, leading to the conclusion that it is not.  It was meant to be open-ended, as has been my participation in this thread since page one.  I don't believe that someone who has not played the course, as I have not, has any right to participate in anything beyond an open-ended questioning.

Ian Andrew (Reply #75, Page 3)...That is a most erudite observation.  I like the idea in music, theater and golf, of rise and fall and rise and fall and rise until the climactic moment (hopefully at the end) is reached.  I bet (and hope) that many disagree with your notion of tremendous disappointment (I hope that it is not that thorough, since nearly half the course is left to be played) upon finishing the 10th hole.  I would imagine that 14 through 16 set up 17 and 18 very well, so I would agree with you on point #2.  Regarding point 3, I don't necessarily think that "compete" with is the idea here.  I used the word "complement," although perhaps "support" might have worked better.

Matt Ward (Reply #76, Page 3)...You are a feisty f&$^, aren't you?  That's good for this forum, I declare.  A course doesn't have to be consistent, but a great course has to be consistently great.  Name one that isn't.  The reason I bring this up is, the Pebble Beach detractors seem to point to anywhere from 4 to 8 holes as ordinary to somewhat ordinary (those being any four to eight of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 12, 13, 15, 17).  Understand that I AM NOT SAYING THIS, I am simply gleaning this information from the opinions of others.  Cypress Point, Merion, NGLA, The Old Course, Oakmont, Royal County Down, Muirfield, et al do not have this many potentially ordinary holes, from anyone's perspective.  When you say "you play alongside the water," is one to assume that playing alongside the water disqualifies ordinary?  Again, I don't know.  I'm simply asking.

Patrick Mucci (Reply #88, Page 3)...There's something unique about being chastised with green ink, I'll say.  You're like that rogue professor that corrects in green, not red.  Good for you!  Thanks for answering the question without ifs, ands or any other conjunction.  You then assign to me a notion that "non-sequential holes need to complement each other."  I don't believe I assigned that notion to greatness; I inquired about the non-great holes complementing the great holes.  I think that Ian Andrew addressed this point precisely by alluding to a crescendo effect.  That's the type of interpretation I sought.  I haven't played Maidstone, NGLA nor Seminole, so I can't comment on those holes.  However, I can say that Bandon Dunes #4 and #16 do complement each other.  They both play northward, both bend left to right, both finish with green sites close to or at the water's edge.  Do they have to complement each other?  It's good that they do.  Regarding the cost of the course, since I haven't played it, I have no bias one way or the other.  I don't look back and say "man, those holes were all were $25 each to play" or "I can't believe I paid $30 a hole for that."  Instead, I sit here and inquire of others.  Many played it decades ago, when cost and access were more reasonable.  Others have played it recently, when ... not so much.  Conditions have changed too, as evidenced by those still frames from the Nicklaus-Snead Shell's Match.  Matt Ward emphasizes the importance of the differing states/conditions of Pebble as directly related to the experience.  I agree that one mole has no effect on Cindy Crawford's beauty...4 to 8 of them might change things, ergo, my interrogation.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2010, 04:04:53 AM »
Sean,

I don't think that NGLA is "lesser" of a golf course because Seminole or CPC are great courses.

I don't think there's a limit on the number of great golf courses.

One can always find a blemish on a golf course, every great course probably has their share, but, like Cindy Crawford, one blemish doesn't diminish the quality of the entire golf course.

I think some use those non-substantive blemishes and try to expand them to broad universal pronouncements/evaluations.

I'm not a great fan of the 18th hole at CPC, but, I don't think, what I perceive is a blemish, is so significant that it overrides the quality of the entire golf course or the other 17 holes, and, I don't think # 18 is a bad hole, only that by comparison, it's not as great/good as its peers.

It's when the blemishes become systemic that the golf course might begin to suffer, but, I don't see any substantive, systemic blemishes at PBGC.


Can anyone identify the alleged systemic  blemishes at PBGC ?

Pat

I don't think any other course is lesser or greater because of any other course.  That is my point.  Courses just are and some happen to be more famous than others.  Often times for good reasons and sometimes for not very good reasons.  Greatness is in the eye of the beholder even if the entire concept of greatness is akin to a fish out of water where golf is concerned.  As Forest states, folks give all sorts of architectural passes for reasons of their own - usually connected with the history of the club/course.  I don't have a problem with that as for me, its the total experience of the day out which is most important.  The shots presented are of course centre stage, but there is plenty of room for side stages.

Ciao

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom MacWood

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2010, 06:23:05 AM »
Pebble Beach is underrated and over exposed. Can imagine what people would think of the course if it were ultra private and not seen on TV every year?

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2010, 06:42:53 AM »
Pebble Beach is underrated and over exposed. Can imagine what people would think of the course if it were ultra private and not seen on TV every year?

Tom, you are making the assumption that we all see it on TV every year.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2010, 07:20:53 AM »

Patrick Mucci

I inquired about the non-great holes complementing the great holes. 

Could you identify the non-great holes and the great holes for us, so that we know which category each hole is in ?


However, I can say that Bandon Dunes #4 and #16 do complement each other.  They both play northward, both bend left to right, both finish with green sites close to or at the water's edge.  Do they have to complement each other?  It's good that they do.


Perhaps our definitions of "complement" are skewed, could you define "complement" in the context of this discussion and your use ?

# 1     I meant Pacific Dunes
# 2     "Complement" means to complete, or make perfect.
          I know of no golf course that's perfect, can you name five, or just one.
          As to completing the course, that's what all remaining holes do

         
         
Regarding the cost of the course, since I haven't played it, I have no bias one way or the other.  I don't look back and say "man, those holes were all were $25 each to play" or "I can't believe I paid $30 a hole for that."  Instead, I sit here and inquire of others.


Do you keep an informal tally, giving each opinion equal weight ?
Or, would a greater degree of credibility be assigned to the opinions of  a Bob Huntley or Adam Claiyman ?
Since you've never played PBGC, in what context  do you evaluate the responses ?


Many played it decades ago, when cost and access were more reasonable.  Others have played it recently, when ... not so much.  Conditions have changed too, as evidenced by those still frames from the Nicklaus-Snead Shell's Match.  Matt Ward emphasizes the importance of the differing states/conditions of Pebble as directly related to the experience.  I agree that one mole has no effect on Cindy Crawford's beauty...4 to 8 of them might change things, ergo, my interrogation.

Conditioning varies, while architecture remains relatively static.

What's the difference, in terms of evaluating the architecture, if I play holes # 8, 9 and 10 under ideal conditions, or poor conditions, ?
Has the underlying architecture changed ?
The strategic options ?


Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2010, 09:18:10 AM »
Oh....and btw....Pebble will be much better when they reverse #9 thru #13...as I've said before.

It's a no brainer waiting for a brain.
Paul- Intersting you mentioned this because I brought this up earlier, 13 and 11 would be much better in reverse, I think 12 woud be too but mainy because 12 is so poor as it is. 9 and 10 in reverse I think woud be as good. Looks a plus to me. No chance of it being done though, history will win.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JESII

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2010, 09:27:56 AM »
Pebble Beach is underrated and over exposed. Can imagine what people would think of the course if it were ultra private and not seen on TV every year?


There are only two ways it could be underrated:
1) You want the rating lists to have it at #1
2) You want everyone that thinks it should be a bit lower than top 10 to think of it as the best course in the world.

I don't see any other logic.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2010, 09:37:04 AM »
I think what is clear from this debate as to PB overated or not is that as 'raters' we all see positives in different eye strengths and sometimes the negatives we discount from views or we think they nullify the great bits.

Whilst I conceed that PB is a great course with a good number of great holes and should be in the world 25. I think its more a case that 9 holes should be in the top 5 and the other 9 holes are outside the top 1000.

All this multiple play stuff to defend PBs lesser holes is a weak defence, the same that could be said for almost any golf course, they are just okay holes and there is very little aspect of greatness to be observed in these holes and quite how a hole like 11 or 15 should alter so dramitcally in how I see it because of damp or F&F conditions is irrelevant. I am not sure on 100 visits to PB I would learn much about 11 or 15. 14 maybe, although I may grow to hate this hole even more.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adam Clayman

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2010, 11:07:01 AM »
The 12th hole in reverse would be worse than the one thats there. Why? Hitting towards those houses, which are too close in proximity, would not only be an eye sore but dangerous to the inhabitants.

What people seem to ignore about perceived weak holes is their psychological affect on the player. When a player has in his mind that a hole is easy, and they walk off that green with a score higher than they felt they should have had, it affects them. For some the affect lingers and can affect their performance on subsequent holes. That's one of the great tricks (character) to Ebb.

Adrian, I think you are wrong about not being able to learn anything new from the holes you mention. Sure in a casual round you might not, but, if you were playing in a formal competition, and, you were out of position on one of your shots, don't you think knowing the tendencies of how the hole plays from all spots would be educational?
 Also, 13 in reverse would be criminal. That green is one of the best and most undulated. The bunkers that eat into it's right side are as well placed as any great bunker complex I know of. Plus, using it's leeward slope to get to certain positions is a wonderful opportunity to be creative. BTW, Same with the front right bunker on 12.

All ya'all seem to place Pebble beach in the pantheon of great courses, yet you suggest changes. I'm baffled by that.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom MacWood

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2010, 11:19:20 AM »

Whilst I conceed that PB is a great course with a good number of great holes and should be in the world 25. I think its more a case that 9 holes should be in the top 5 and the other 9 holes are outside the top 1000.


I'm not sure how one decides if an individual hole is top 5 or top 25 or top 1000...what is the critieria for deciding if a hole is top 5 or top 25 worthy?

Which 9 holes at PBGL are outside the top 1000?

Is is possible that those supposed mediocre holes suffer in comparison to the large number of other-worldy holes at PBGL?

PBGL has two things going against it IMO, first it is overexposed (in comparison to Cypress Point, Pine Valley, etc), we see the course every year and sometimes twice year, and second, the course is open to the public (very very expensive, which I believe also effects some peoples enjoyment of the golf course). There is certain mystique that ultra private elite courses have which often translates into subconscious bonus points.

Casa de Campo, another top 25 course, is often referred to as PBGL East, and no doubt it is a very good to great course it pales in comparison. The scale of PBGL is second to none; the dramatic terain and elevation changes are being ignored by those downgrading the course. There is no golf course like it in the world.

Jud_T

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2010, 11:26:50 AM »
Tom,

Good points.  Since we all agree that the great holes at PBGL are REALLY great, it boils down to 2 things:

1. Relative merits of the "other" holes.  Those who have played the course quite a bit seem to understand/appreciate them more and hold them in higher regard (a good sign generally) and

2. How much one values the setting, history, etc.....

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2010, 11:28:21 AM »
The 12th hole in reverse would be worse than the one thats there. Why? Hitting towards those houses, which are too close in proximity, would not only be an eye sore but dangerous to the inhabitants.

What people seem to ignore about perceived weak holes is their psychological affect on the player. When a player has in his mind that a hole is easy, and they walk off that green with a score higher than they felt they should have had, it affects them. For some the affect lingers and can affect their performance on subsequent holes. That's one of the great tricks (character) to Ebb.

Adrian, I think you are wrong about not being able to learn anything new from the holes you mention. Sure in a casual round you might not, but, if you were playing in a formal competition, and, you were out of position on one of your shots, don't you think knowing the tendencies of how the hole plays from all spots would be educational?
 Also, 13 in reverse would be criminal. That green is one of the best and most undulated. The bunkers that eat into it's right side are as well placed as any great bunker complex I know of. Plus, using it's leeward slope to get to certain positions is a wonderful opportunity to be creative. BTW, Same with the front right bunker on 12.

All ya'all seem to place Pebble beach in the pantheon of great courses, yet you suggest changes. I'm baffled by that.
Adam- I wont disagree with you re 12 in reverse because I dont have enough knowledge of that land and eyesore aspect of those houses you mention, although that same 'eyesore' was what I see when playing the 11th. All golf courses can be betterred, some chose not to because of history, your reason for not doing 13 is not a good reason IMO and I say this because that same great green compex ( and I do remember that green and being above the hole) could be replicated elsewhere. I think PB could be bettered. I suppose I dont see anything particulary hidden at holes 1, 2, 3, 11, 15 that I am going to earn via mutiple play.. 15 is the one that seems to be so visible although saying that I remembered the green as falling away rather that sitting at you which you said (or Matt) I was wrong, by and large its all visible.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2010, 11:34:56 AM »

Whilst I conceed that PB is a great course with a good number of great holes and should be in the world 25. I think its more a case that 9 holes should be in the top 5 and the other 9 holes are outside the top 1000.


I'm not sure how one decides if an individual hole is top 5 or top 25 or top 1000...what is the critieria for deciding if a hole is top 5 or top 25 worthy?

Which 9 holes at PBGL are outside the top 1000?

An opinion -Holes that a world top 5 ( criteria a top 100 hole) 7-8-9-10-18
holes that came close 6 and 4
holes that if they were on any golf course you would not talk about them 1-3- the old 5th - 11 -12 -15
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2010, 12:55:33 PM »

An opinion -Holes that a world top 5 ( criteria a top 100 hole) 7-8-9-10-18
holes that came close 6 and 4
holes that if they were on any golf course you would not talk about them 1-3- the old 5th - 11 -12 -15


I'm still having a hard time understanding your criteria for what constitutes a hole being top 5 or top 25 or top 1000.

#1 is nothing to write home about, but first holes rarely are....they are get away holes. I believe #3 is better than you think. It is an unusual hole, an awkward drive due to the severity of the dogleg. There is an excellent use of the barranca IMO, especially in combination with the orientation of the green and greenside bunkering. The old 5th was a completely unique hole (I'm sorry to see it go) because of the narrowness of the opening in the trees and the severity of the green, and again a good use of a barranca as well. It was visually intimidating. #11 suffers from the spectacular holes proceeding it; it is a very good hole that any great golf course would be proud to own. #6 and #14 deserve to be included in your top shelf hole catagory, and #16 and #4 are close behind. #13 is very good; #15 not quite as good, but has an interesting tee shot, again over a barranca. I love #2 too; it has an old fashioned look and feel with its cross hazards...very appealing to me. I'm not a big fan of #17, probably because the hole looks so good and dramatic from a TV tower and is visually pedestrian from ground level. That being said the design of the hole, ie the strategy, is world class. #12 is my least favorite hole, but as Tom Simpson said every great course needs at least one or two bad holes to be considered truly great.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 01:10:21 PM by Tom MacWood »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Is Pebble Beach overrated ?
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2010, 01:43:48 PM »
I'm inclined to think along the lines of Tom Ms last post.

There isn't one single hole at Pebble that comes remotely close to the mediocre/average category even if they are far "less" than what some of the other holes offer.

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