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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Evolution; Mutation and Variation
« on: December 29, 2009, 10:42:17 PM »
Fascinating science coming out of the Human Genome project.

How would the titled concepts fit into a golf course architecture discussion?

Through the family trees of past archies and their disciples?

Or,

Through what we find in the dirt?

Discuss,. Go ahead, throw it out there. There's no right or wrong, or, expected direction for the conversation...

i.e.


One of my earliest theories on a connection between Sand Hills and Ballyneal was that Tom felt compelled to 'out do' his compatriot counter parts, given the similarities in the medium. This would be an example of a positive mutation and a variation.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Evolution; Mutation and Variation
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 02:41:38 AM »
I'd have to go with 'subtle' variation rather than mutation.  Some of the definitions I found:

Biology - a difference or deviation in structure or character from others of the same species or group.

Curiously, variation within a musical context seems to work for me in my understanding of GCA, as in:
e.A form that is an altered version of a given theme, diverging from it by melodic ornamentation and by changes in harmony, rhythm, or key.

I don't see Ballyneal as morphing or mutating into something else, positively, neutral or negatively.  It is still a basicly sand hills or chop hills golf course, treeless, enormously and widely varied sand hill structures, and attempting to present the same general playing conditions of firm, fast, intersting lies in FWs and contours on the greens, utilizing natural occuring factors of wind in the strategy, and appealing to a similar aesthetic and psychological feeling of place.

The family tree is certainly interesting to consider, in a Dye patriarch sort of way.  Yet, I don't see anything I associate with a Dye-like style in any of Coore and Crenshaw's work at SHGC, nor TDs at Ballyneal.  Now if you could somehow tie old Pete into being influenced by Perry Maxwell, we might have something.  ;D

That TD would seek to 'outdo' a compatriot... shocking!   ;) ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Evolution; Mutation and Variation
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 07:04:17 AM »
Well, I can tell you for a fact that we were not trying to "outdo" Sand Hills while we were building Ballyneal.  For one thing, I have too much respect for Dick Youngscap and Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw.  For another, I'm not an idiot -- trying to outdo Sand Hills is setting oneself up for failure.

I'm sure I have written it here before, but my main goal at Ballyneal was to be sure we were building a course DIFFERENT enough from Sand Hills that it would be seen as something more than just a knockoff.  That was hard enough to do, considering the similarity of the settings; but I thought that we would get there if our 18 holes were very different than their 18 holes.  So, our short par-3 is nothing like theirs; our long par-3 is nothing like theirs; our par-5's are nothing like theirs; etc.

I do think Ballyneal is unique in one respect.  I've never before played a course where large natural undulations are such a big part of the greens and green complexes, and affect the strategy as much as they do at Ballyneal.  This was not a concept we started with; it just evolved over the process of construction.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Evolution; Mutation and Variation
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 08:08:32 AM »
Mutation...Sea Island;  Originally a Travis 9 and a Colt/Alison 9.  Wilson and Lee add 9's...they are joined with the older 9's to form 18's then Fazio and Jones add some to it...DLIII creates a course. 

Evolution...The Old Course; my understanding is that as it evolved it defined golf.  Nothing illustrates this better than Old Tom settling on 18 holes.  I think this is right...but am open to correction.

Variation...Pinehurst; 8 courses at Pinehurst proper with mulitple designers having their hand in the mix.  Also, Pine Needles, Mid Pines and Tobacco Road are right there...just to name a few.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Carl Rogers

Re: Evolution; Mutation and Variation
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 08:11:43 AM »
Yes, Tom, I can understand your reaction.  

My perception is that Mainstream Golf Design has so uncritiquely accepted the archetypal hole(s) of Macdonald, Raynor & Banks for such an extended period of time over so many types of typographies and climates, there is going to be a natural comparison between course A and course B.   This comparison may be fairly irrelevant, but it is always unfortunately there.

There is also at times be a negative reaction by some to a course that does not lie within the accepted norm.  The 'formula' is a starting point but also a straight jacket.

In the world of building the 'me tooism' and the 'one upsmanship' is irrelevant, prevelant and destructive.  As I have gotten older, I have learned to appreciate the design education I got at Tulane, where there was an overarching emphasis to evaluate and critique work on its own terms and on your terms.  It takes longer to learn this way but ultimately better.

I hope to get to Bandon with Scott Weersing in 2011.  My perception of the overall facility is that by making each course have a strong singular identity of its own within certain common overarching themes, the comparison of 'vanilla with cashews' vs 'vanilla with almonds' is  avoided.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:01:21 AM by Carl Rogers »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Evolution; Mutation and Variation
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 10:06:04 AM »
So, Nobody tires to build a better mouse trap?

Bullshee.

It may not be a conscience thought, but shouldn't the desire be to create the best possible result, striving to improve on past performances to guarantee survival?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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