We have to be thankful....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

....they built them when they did.

Today's architects have to work within many constraints, particularly all sorts of planning laws and regulations which did not apply in the so-called Golden Age. Which of the great old courses would be turned down if their plans were submitted today?

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm stating the obvious here, but Pebble Beach and Cypress Point immediately jump to mind (California).

[Adam Clayman]

It's worth a mention of Mike Keiser on this front. In another 100 years someone will likely say the same thing about the great courses that were built in this era. He just happens to be involved with quite a few of them.

[Tony Ristola]

It's pretty amazing what can't be done... all the hoops, hurdles and hand holders.

.

[Tom_Doak]

I guess there are some places where things really can't be done, and I guess I've been fortunate not to encounter too many.  The only project I've had that was really shot down was the new 18 holes at Aetna Springs, and that was strictly a zoning matter, not for environmental reasons.

However, I do believe that many things COULD be done if only the process is approached correctly.  For example, for years, we were told there was no way to build a golf course in SSSI, but David Kidd has done so, and Donald Trump has received permission to do so, using diametrically opposed approaches.

So I would not want to identify any course of yesterday as "not doable" today.  If that were really so, it would imply that the course in question was somehow harmful to the environment and should not have been built, wouldn't it?  But I fully agree that the process is way more complicated [and fraught with dangerous precedents] than it ought to be.

[Adrian_Stiff]

....they built them when they did.

Today's architects have to work within many constraints, particularly all sorts of planning laws and regulations which did not apply in the so-called Golden Age. Which of the great old courses would be turned down if their plans were submitted today?

I am pretty sure that if someone lodged a plan for a golf course that drives over the property of a hotel, with a hole that finishes in the town and crosses the road to the beach it would get ..."its a no from me."

[Roger Wolfe]

TPC Sawgrass?

[Jim Tang]

Along the lines that Tom addressed, I have always argued that building a golf course is a great way to preserve the environment rather than destroy/harm it.  You're takng land and turning it into a green space that will exist, potentially, for hundreds and hundreads of years, if not longer.  It is a place that animals can live and not be hunted.  Plants and trees are preserved.

I don't understand the environmentalist's point of view that building a golf course harms the environment.  Granted,  I don't know a lick about what goes into building a golf course, and in the short run, during construction, with dirt being moved and heavy equipment on site, the land is being torn up.  However, I feel in the long run, you have many benefits for the environment.

Am I wrong?  Could someone with more knowledge about the process of building a golf course explain why environmentalists make it so difficult to build on certain sites?  Would they rather see a shopping mall or housing development go up on that site instead?

[Rick Shefchik]

The only category of course that could not be built today are the ones in the middle of a densely-populated city -- Interlachen, Minikahda and Town & Country in the Twin Cities come immediately to mind. That's what we have to be thankful for -- that for some, the drive to their outstanding course is just a matter of minutes, rather than hours, thanks to golf enthusiasts from 100 years ago.

[Jay Flemma]

....I'll echo that I enjoyed Minikahda and Interlachen, but I liked White Bear even more.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

In general, the people who oppose golf course construction would prefer that NOTHING AT ALL be built on the property in question, that it remain open land forever ... no matter what the actual landowner wants.  But, if you have zoning to build something they would like even LESS than a golf course, they will be more open to the possibility.  That's why Sebonack exists today, to speak of one course that most people would have said never stood a chance of happening.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark I think many of the Heathland courses would gather huge protests if proposed today.

The story of Walton Heath has similarities to Trump in Scotland, except in those days they had a new act of parliament 1895 giving them more rights over common land and those who had rights were cheaply bought off by the powerful money men.


IN fact I’d wager any courses over common ground would have trouble today from a well organised group of NIMBYS in concert with (showing my age) the great unwashed .

EG

The Old Course & 5 others
Musselburgh
North Berwick?
Blackheath
Westward Ho
Wimbledon/London Scottish
Royal Epping
Portrush

Etc etc...

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

I concur with Tony

In Canada, to name a few: Cape Breton Highlands
                                      Anne of Green Gables
                                      Country Club of Montreal
                                      Hamilton Golf & Country Club
                                      Banff
                                      Jasper
                                      Capilano

and many others would be doubtful with the new regulations pertaining to setbacks from water courses or flood plains, which would create unplayable forced carries. St. Georges comes to mind.

[Ulrich Mayring]

It is a place that animals can live and not be hunted.

That is actually a two-edged sword ecologically speaking. Animals need to hunt each other to preserve the natural balance of healthy habitats. But if you provide a safe haven for one species, you deprive their predator. Remember how often you see rabbits on golf courses and how often foxes. The rabbits love golf courses, because they know the fox is generally too wary of humans to hunt there.

Ulrich

[Tom_Doak]

Ulrich:

Interestingly, I've seen foxes on several courses recently, when I never used to see them at all.  Guess they have less other places to hunt, so they're having to overcome their fear of humans.  My most recent sighting was at Riviera, just a couple of months ago.

[Garland Bayley]

Ulrich,

A second thought related to Tom's is that it is not necessarily the golfers that chase the wild life away, but it is the surrounding community. Bobcats used to hunt rabbits on my home course. Then the town grew outwards to the point where it surrounds the golf course.

The bobcats moved farther out of town to hunt their rabbits.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We had a fox that used to watch the golf and sit on the putting green, she even followed it when we had the pro's there and was on TV, a ot of people thought she was a dog at first. She would eat crisps out of some of girls hands but never any of the mens, she knew her name 'Roxy' and when she had cubs she brought one cub up to the clubhouse, a week later Roxy died. That cub came up reguarly but was never as tame. She got run over though. :O(

[Jason McNamara]

So I would not want to identify any course of yesterday as "not doable" today.  If that were really so, it would imply that the course in question was somehow harmful to the environment and should not have been built, wouldn't it? 

Is that really the only question which occupies (for example) the CCC?

(Honest question; I don't know what their brief truly is - or the extent to which they overstep it, if any.)

[Sean_A]

Well, it depends on whee one proposes to build a course.  I don't like the idea of courses being built in state forests, state parks or national parks for starters.  I also believe there should be rigorous regulation when building anything.  Because I love the game doesn't mean I want to see some truly fantastic sites (think Old Head and Trump's new jobbie in Aberdeenshire) spoiled with 18 flags nor the regulation reduced.  Sometimes, just having land doing nothing is a great and wonderous thing.  No, I am all in favour of making developers go through wringer.  There is nothing wrong with diligence and care where development is concerned.  Afterall, golf is only a game.

Ciao