how good is Peter Thomson as an architect?

[Mike_Clayton]

Ernie was fantastic that week - there was no wind and the greens were soft.The cut was 143
They year before on the same course the greens were hard and the wind was up a bit. The cut was 151.
Goosen won but the scores were quite high - except for Retief's 3rd round 63 which was one of the best rounds ever played in Australia.

[Andrew Summerell]

Most of the work at LKCC was Mike Wolveridge's.

Neil,

How much of Mike Wolveridge's & Ross Perrett's work would need to be aproved by Peter ? As the principal of the company, I would have thought everything.

[James Bennett]

David

You can also put down two clubs where they were the consulting architects, Barwon Heads and Riversdale that we (Crafter + Mogford) have since done master plans for and are their architects now.

Neil

I am pleased to hear that your firm is associated with Riversdale.  Good luck.  Quite a few weeds on the northern side of tees and greens, although I think the membership likes many of the weeds.  Riversdale is one club where hybrid couch fairways and new bent greens have resulted in significantlyt different playing conditions, which are not easy when it comes to the tie-in work with any rebuild on a sloping site.

James B

PS

I enjoyed Bali Handara many years ago, although I think that was Mike Wolveridge IIRC.  I also enjoyed Alice Springs - some architectural similarities at times despite the exact opposite in climate! 

Recently, I enjoyed some aspects of Twin Waters - particularly the feeling of space on a wooded and laked course.  However, the greens shape was somewhat repetitive.  And, Hope Island some 15 years ago when the bent greens were still in use was fun, although I have never minded small greens.  Both of these Queensland courses have greens which are elevated some 12 inches above the natural lie of the land.  Unfortunately, the elevation is undertaken in a way thatcan kill the ground game, although in no way as severely as some of the fronts of greens at Moonah Links.  I can't comment on National Moonah as I have never seen it.

[Kevin Pallier]

others that have played his work, what did you think??

I believe that the design group of TWP have done "consistent" work at greenfield sites but redesigns aren't their forte.

When I say "consistent" - I refer to them being of a a resonable to decent standard without anything "truly speacial". For example - I rate their Legends course at around the 30 mark in the country followed by Moonah Links (Open) and Hope Island - all within the backend of our Nation's Top50.

I think they could have done better with the site at National (Ocean) and their sister sites  - Moonah and Old - are certainly better recieved.

David mentioned some courses earlier that have had redo's since TWP alterations - others:
- NSW = TWP changes in 1985 / Newton, Grant and Spencer in 1993 + Harrison (2000 and ongoing)
- Royal Adelaide = TWP in 1997 / Clayton in 2009 (and ongoing)
- The Lakes = TWP in 2000 / Clayton in 2009
- Royal Sydney = TWP in 1987 / Watson in 2003

[Dates of above are listed from Golf Australia Mag. Jan 2010 Issue]

[Ally Mcintosh]

Most of the work at LKCC was Mike Wolveridge's.

Neil,

How much of Mike Wolveridge's & Ross Perrett's work would need to be aproved by Peter ? As the principal of the company, I would have thought everything.

I guess that they either are or have all been "principle architects" in their time, hence the name of the company... The answer to your question seems like it could vary depending on the internal workings of their company... But in theory, it could be "none"... In practice, it is unlikely that they wouldn't at least collaborate on some high level ideas.... But that doesn't mean "approval"...

I'm sure Neil et al will actually know the answer to this... as opposed to guessing...

[Matthew Mollica]

I find it hard to think anything other than the fact that Peter's firm is awarded a considerable percentage of tenders based on his Open Championship record, and not the calibre of his design portfolio.

I think the posts of Andrew Summerell, Dave Elvins & Mark Ferguson are pretty much spot on. They are informed, intelligent and considered opinions, from men well versed in quality golf design.

Personally speaking, I find the work from Peter's firm (in its various forms of acronym through the decades) largely overly penal, uninspiring, and possessing a distinct sameness, irrespective of site. Their Australian courses are in north Queensland, Gold Coast, New South Wales coast, adjacent to the Murray, and the Mornington Peninsula, among other sites. Many are given the same treatment.

I think National (Ocean) is a site of rare quality in a global sense, and the results given the budget and possibilities, are quite disappointing. The routing is quite unimaginative to say the least.

The recently published Golf Australia magazine ratings has Moonah Links (Legends) at 23 , National (Ocean) at 31, Moonah Links (Open) at 39, and Hope Island at 48. I personally feel these ratings flatter both Moonah Links courses and The Ocean. For a firm having built so many courses in this country, 4 courses in the top 50, and one in the top 30 is a result which would not satisfy me, were I the head of the firm.

I've never met Peter Thomson, but would sincerely love to do so. He's no doubt an intelligent, well-spoken, articulate thinker, with a CV in professional golf with few peers. I keep wanting to understand what he does, and wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt. I am frustrated that he designs and builds golf courses which I find so consistently disappointing. And, as been said before, the renovation work is of lesser quality. Jarring, and at stylistic odds with existing design facets. Their re-worked greens at Metropolitan (4) and Kingswood (11) are so clearly a departure from much of the fabric of the respective courses, so as to be a blight.

Neil C - I agree with Andrew, in that Mike W & Ross P may be solely responsible for some work, with Peter delegating, or busy elsewhere, but ultimately, the outcome has Peter name on it, and anyone in this position must accept some responsibility for the finished product.

MM

[Ally Mcintosh]

Personally speaking, I find the work from Peter's firm (in its various forms of acronym through the decades) overly penal, uninspiring, and possessing a distinct sameness, irrespective of site.

This is a dangerous generalisation I think.... You are talking from an Australian perspective only...

As Brian Phillips suggested above, I would direct you to the new Carya course in Turkey (Thomson, Perrett and Lobb)... In fact, I would say the same to all posters on this thread... I would like to hear some meaningful reviews of the course...

[Matthew Mollica]

Ally,

I take your point. The course in Turkey is not one I've played. I've not perused the plans for their course in Egypt yet either.


Of the Thomson et al Australian designs, I've seen (and in some cases quite frequently played) -

The National (Ocean), both Moonah Links courses, both courses at Sandhurst, both courses at Yarrawonga, Twin Waters, Port Douglas and Camden Lakeside, as well as the new 9 holes at Royal Canberra. I'm sure there's more too.  I've seen their work at Barwon Heads, The Lakes, Lake Karrinyup, Royal Adelaide, Rich River, and many other courses. I've not played Capital as yet, but I hear from multiple reliable sources it is an immaculately maintained and presented course of little architectural merit.

As David Elvins points out, a significant number of their course works have been overhauled or undone.

9 of the 18 greens at The National Ocean were re-worked within the first 5 years of the course's life.
Many tees were re-aligned, and several bunkers worked on. On an all-world site...

Tim Liddy was called to completely overhaul The Dukes course.

When does one start thinking - I've seen enough to make a considered opinion?

MM

[Trent Dixon]

I believe it was my comment that prompted this thread.

 I'd like to say I meant absolutely no disrespect to Peter Thomson as a golfer or a person, and that I've always admired his candour when asked his opinion on many subjects relating to golf.

I'd also like to add that, in my opinion, as far as "resort courses" go both Twin Waters and Hope Island are most certainly not overly penal or lacking strategy, but quite fun courses to play. I did however find the two designs I played on the Mornington Peninsula, attributed to his company, to be quite disappointing compared to some of the other work on similar sites within the region both from an interest and strategy perspective. For a decent golfer much of the interest in golf comes from the options available within 100m of the green. I found much of the contouring and hazard placement in this area to eliminate many of the options that could, and should have been available.

Fortunately Mike Clayton has now removed the visually offensive work his company did at Royal Queensland. The bunkering there was hideous, and the 9th and 18th green redesigns took 2 or 3 years to become playable due to their firmness and design.

Neil Crafter might be able to shed some light on this but I'm also led to believe the ugly mounding on the first and 8th at Royal Adelaide was added by TWP?

[Mark_F]

I've not perused the plans for their course in Egypt yet either.

Matt,

I bet their push-up greens blend right in with the other pyramid shapes in Egypt...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Fair point Matthew...

But I'm just reiterating a point made previously... If this thread is about discussing Peter Thomson and his design skills, people have to be very careful to talk about what he was actually responsible for and not what was done by others...

I think you'd see a very different design style in Turkey... But I'll also suggest that his involvement was likely minimal...

[Andrew Summerell]

I think you'd see a very different design style in Turkey... But I'll also suggest that his involvement was likely minimal...

Ally,

Do you know who did do most of the design work in Turkey?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think you'd see a very different design style in Turkey... But I'll also suggest that his involvement was likely minimal...

Ally,

Do you know who did do most of the design work in Turkey?

Well Tim Lobb is the principle of the European office so it was under his lead... Philip Spogard was his associate at the time and this was his baby... I don't know where and when Peter Thomson and Ross Perrett's involvement started and stopped...

[Mark_F]

Ally,

Here is a very interesting quote from PT that perhaps sheds some light on his design philosophy.

"... is arguably Australia's finest course, which makes it, in turn, one of the top courses in the world.  It has modernity in plenty, measuring a length which stretches the top players. It has all the features of bunkers, rough and hazards that any world standard course would offer."

[Andrew Summerell]

Interesting that Ross is redesigning a Thomson Wolveridge course! I haven't seen the Legends course at Moonah but have heard good reports on it, have played the Open course and it is pretty tough going.

Neil,

Camden Lakeside will be mostly eaten up by houses, as will a 27 hole course, a little further down the road called Camden Valley. Part of the redevelopment plan is that the developers will restore 27 holes around & through the housing. At this stage, a few of the southern holes at Camden Lakeside will survive, but the rest will be all new. In this sense, Ross won't be working on many original holes at Camden Lakeside.

Of course this project as been through various stages of planning for many years now & I'm sure things will change again. You know what developers are like. I will be interested to see what sort of course will result.

[Brian Walshe]

TWP/TP/TXXXX has been Australia's dominant design firm for at least 20, if not 30 years.  The fact they haven't built a world class course, ie Top 20 in Australia, even given their access to great sites (the 3 sites on the Cups for example) suggests they have failed to deliver compared to their contemporaries, Harrison and Clayton in particular.

I think they peaked in the mid 1980’s. For those that haven’t played Alice Springs, it is a fantastic routing over a tough site.  The front nine is exceptional, probably the best routing I have seen over a difficult site in this country.  From there they have built mostly what I would consider the “same” time after time.  If you are on a good thing, stick to it.  Push up greens that don’t blend or merge into the surrounding land forms.  A bunker style (the TWP grass faced pot for many years) that was not all that attractive and in the end repetitive.  A strategic style dominated by Mr Thomson’s own game.  Peter drove the ball straight.  Most of his courses are penal in nature and punish the poor shot rather than rewarding the good shot.  A very good low marker once remarked to me about the National Ocean Course (yes a Mike Wolveridge design) “Once you work out that you need to play away from the hazards it isn’t hard.  There is simply no reward for playing anywhere near them.”

The facet I find most disappointing in their green complexes.   They tend to be elevated above the surrounding terrain and “forced” onto the land rather than melding in.  The bunker style tends to require the bunkers to be set back at least a metre or two from the green surface, therefore having less influence on the approach.  Their greens also tend to be regular in shape – roundish or oblong and not favour a shot from one side over the other.  Lastly they tend to favour a predominant slope over internal movement which creates a sameness.  Look at Harrison’s greens on National Moonah versus TWP’s greens at either National Ocean or Moonah Links Open.

Peter Thomson, either the man or the golfer will be held in high regard.  Peter Thomson the designer will be viewed in a lesser light.

[Brian Phillips]

I think you'd see a very different design style in Turkey... But I'll also suggest that his involvement was likely minimal...

Ally,

Do you know who did do most of the design work in Turkey?

Philip did nearly all of the work at Turkey who posts on here now and then.

[Andrew Thomson]

The strange thing about Peter Thomson is that I think he actually has immaculate taste in golf courses, excluding those he has built.  He knows what he likes and articulates why it is so good well.

I played with a gentleman yesterday who told me a story about the first Moonah Classic they played down on the Moonah Open course, and how they had a feature story on the coverage hosted by Peter Thomson where he went through the course, hole by hole explaining the strategy and design intent.

His comment was "It sounded wonderful, and he articulated his design philosphies really well, but what he said had absolutely no relation to the course that he was describing.  What is in the ground, and what he intended, appear to be 2 very different things"