how good is Peter Thomson as an architect?

[PThomas]

someone mentioned on a thread how he thought Peter really screwed up 2 great sites....

others that have played his work, what did you think??

[Scott Macpherson]

Paul,

I would like to say that Peter Thomson is a man I greatly admire. He is an extremely clever man, with great devotion to his work and family. I have spent a significant amount of time with him and never cease to be impressed. He has a deep knowledge of the game and an instinct for design. Some may not like the some of the work of his company, but design is a subjective process and everybody has preferences. Indeed, even the great designers did work that may not be of the highest standard.

Mr Thomson has made a great contribution to golf as a player and designer, and if you are going to throw tomatoes, I think you need differentiate between a specific design strategy do you like, and name it, and between him versus his company.

regards,

Scott

[Brian Phillips]

The work that Thomson Perrett and Lobb are now doing is very good.

Here is a link to their latest project that opened this year in Belek, Turkey

http://www.tpl.eu.com/current-proj-01.php

They are all great people that work at the company as well, all passionate for the game. Peter Thomson spoke at the Royal Melbourne meeting this year and he was wonderful to listen to.

[PThomas]

Scott, i just passed along 1 comment that I read...

i'm just looking for people to tell me what they think of his courses, good or bad, that's all..i have no agenda, just curiosity

[Bill_McBride]

Maybe Paul can ask his source what courses of Thompson's firm his source is not too impressed with.

I don't think his post got to the level of character assassination but it would be interesting to know which work is being discussed.

Is most of his work down under?  (I love that phrase!   )

[Andrew Thomson]

He did ok with a reclaimed swamp at Hope Island, but apart from that he makes a much better golfer than he does designer.

Has had the opportunity to work with some great sites and done a less than ideal job.

[PThomas]

someone mentioned Moonah Links and National Ocean as "disappointing" (my word)

[Dale Jackson]

He did ok with a reclaimed swamp at Hope Island, but apart from that he makes a much better golfer than he does designer.

Has had the opportunity to work with some great sites and done a less than ideal job.

Andrew, I think Mr. Thompson, and this DG deserves more than that.  This is one way he has made his livelihood and to merely say he has "worked with some great sites and has done a less than ideal job", does not help any of us, and puts down Peter without any foundation.

[Sean Walsh]

Paul,

I have only played it once and it was considerable time ago but The Ocean course is not as bad as some on here would have you believe.  I can't give an opinion on his overall body of work because I have played very few or so long ago that any opinion would be based on scant memory. 

My one regret from my time caddying on the Old Course was missing Thompson and his group by one spot on the list.  Also heard this little anecdote. 

R&A Member "Mr Thompson, What are you after in a caddy?"
Thompson     "A Mute"

I'm certain that's not exactly as I heard it but I think you get the point.  Not sure of the truth in it but very funny

[Andrew Summerell]

I’ve played quite a few Thomson (Perrett/Wolveridge) courses & I must say I’ve found many to be disappointing. The company went through a stage of using pot bunkers on most of their sites, even in circumstances where pot bunkers were not suitable. Another thing I’ve noticed is that many of their green designs reoccur. The 18th at National Ocean can be found at Hope Island and this can be seen throughout many of his designs from the late 80’s onward.

Camden Lakeside is only 5 minutes from where I live. It is built on extremely hard clay & is about 50 km from the coast, but has been designed to emulate, in his own words, “some of the world’s great links courses”. It has pot bunkers & flat greens & very little strategy.

Some of his earlier courses like Alice Springs & Tura Beach work better & show a more individual quality than his later work.

To see his redesign work, you only have to look at Royal Adelaide. Some of the mounding that he designed there is astonishing. The mounds at the back of the 9th are a perfect example, being totally out of character with the rest of the course & showing no reference with Mackenzie original work. The company’s work at The Lakes showed very little consideration with the theme of the course, which has now been fixed by Mike Clayton.

There have been too many Thomson courses (most redesigns) that have been reworked within only a few years of Thomson’s work being completed.

Royal Adelaide 9th (Mounds behind the green courtesy of P. Thomson)

[Neil_Crafter]

Firstly, can I suggest the thread title gets altered so that Peter Thomson's name is spelt correctly - there is no 'p' in it. Can you do that please paul?

While the firm of Thomson Wolveridge and Perrett designed the Ocean Course at The National and both courses at Moonah Links, each of the three principals had major responsibility for each of those three courses, with Wolveridge responsible for the Ocean course at the National, Thomson for the Open course at Moonah and Perrett responsible for the legends course at Moonah. So some care in design attributions needs to be taken I think.

And Andrew S, I have some doubts as to whether the mounds behind the 9th green were done by Thomson. My father Brian and I redesigned that green back in about 1991 and those mounds were not there, apart from one at the right rear that we did not touch. we also added a second shot fairway bunker down the left side. Those mounds behind the green are a recent addition, and I agree they are an eyesore. I have some slides of that green from 1998 and those mounds are not there. i think they were added - most probably on the committee's direction - in recent years to stop balls going through onto the 10th tees beyond. But I have no reason to suspect Thomson did them.

[Andrew Summerell]

And Andrew S, I have some doubts as to whether the mounds behind the 9th green were done by Thomson. My father Brian and I redesigned that green back in about 1991 and those mounds were not there, apart from one at the right rear that we did not touch. we also added a second shot fairway bunker down the left side. Those mounds behind the green are a recent addition, and I agree they are an eyesore. I have some slides of that green from 1998 and those mounds are not there. i think they were added - most probably on the committee's direction - in recent years to stop balls going through onto the 10th tees beyond. But I have no reason to suspect Thomson did them.

I'm only going off what RA's super told me. They were part of Thomson's later work & are probably only about 4 or 5 years old.

[Neil_Crafter]

Andrew
I could be wrong of course, but I didn't think he would have done these. I do know they are recent though. In any event they really spoil the green, we are agreed on that!

[Andrew Summerell]

Neil,

I was always led to believe from various people attached to the club (Super, Members) that Peter was the ‘resident’ architect up until only a few years ago. Apart from the 9th, I would assume this would also include the work & re-working at the 5th & the 14th.

I could never understand the mounds at the 9th & how they would protect the 10th tee. The mounds wouldn’t stop a golfer overshooting with their 2nd shot as the shot would be played with a reasonably long iron/wood, & the person who overshoots with their 3rd shot would see the ball fly or bounce over the mounds. I’m not even sure it would be a green that would be regularly over shot.

I should add that I believe Moonah Legends is a decent course. I believe Ross will be doing the Camden Lakeside/Camden Valley redesign, so I'm looking forward to see the finished product, although it hasn't started yet.

[Neil_Crafter]

Andrew
Peter was the resident architect as you say until only recently, when they appointed Clayts. As I said we did a little bit of work for the club  quite a long time ago, late 80's or early 90's not sure now. Before Peter took over in the lead up to the 98 Aust Open, his partner Mike Wolveridge looked after their work at RA. Thommo has done work on 2 (new green), 7th (new tees), 8th (fairway bunkering and ridge), 9th (ridge - now removed - and tee shot bunkers), 14th (rear tee) 15th (ridge now removed) and other misc bits and pieces.

You are right, those mounds are pretty poor protection for the 10th tees and can't imagine that there are all that many shots that find their way onto the tee in any event. Interesting that Ross is redesigning a Thomson Wolveridge course! I haven't seen the Legends course at Moonah but have heard good reports on it, have played the Open course and it is pretty tough going.

[Josh Stevens]

Not a fan.

I have not played many courses he was involved in other than my home club that he did a reno on in the 90's.  That was a poor job and has now been totally removed - the greens were poorly constructed, both in terms of drainage and interest - they were almost impossible to to maintain properly and had little or no interest other than being small and fast.  And the bunkering??  well they were sandy I guess which is about the best I can say about them.  There seems to be something of a trend at the moment with Clayton being brought in to de-Thommo a bunch of old courses.

Probably a nice guy, but i doubt he will go down in the annals of great designers

[David_Elvins]

It is very hard to seperate one person out from a design firm but if one is to judge the work ofthe design firm,  to some degree the proof is in the pudding.  

Work at Lake Karrinyup redesigned within 20 years.
Work at the Lakes redesigned within 5 years.  
Dukes Course, St Andrews redesigned within 15 years.
Two of the threee Mornington Peninsula courses (National Ocean and Moonah Open) rank significantly lower than other modern courses on similar ground - St Andrews Beach, National Moonah, Dunes, National Old, Moonah Legends which would mean in the eyes of many they were lost opportunites.  

Personally, I am not a huge fan of their work and limitations aside believe Ballarat Golf Club to be the worst golf course built in Australia in tthe last 25 years.  

Here are a couple of photos from Lake Karrinyup and The Lakes which I think are representative of their style.

[David_Elvins]

On the other hand, I am very much looking forward to checking out their design at Dent Island

http://www.hamiltonislandgolfclub.com.au/golf-course/hole-information/Pages/hole-16.aspx#top

[Scott Warren]

David,

A bloke told me re Hammo GC: "We've seen it all before, but at least this time the views are nice."

Do you think he was selling Thommo and Co short?

[Mark_F]

I've played a few of his designs, including the ones on better sites.  

Aside from the aforementioned bunker style, what is interesting is that in many cases TWP/Thomson talk up the ground game, but then design a course almost entirely reliant upon an aerial game.

They are distinctly penal, especially the one I am most familiar with, but that penality is aimed at a very narrow range of players - mid single to mid teen handicappers.  Anyone better is good enough to avoid the hazards, and anyone worse probably won't reach them anyway, since many hazards are designed to be at specific distances - unless there is water involved, which is far more in play for the average player than the good one.

What us clear is that they run out of inspiration very easily - there are usually one or two good holes that follow "normal" strategic principles, but then no more.  You might also find one or two interesting greens, but then the others will be quite bland.

Moonah Links Open isn't actually that bad a routing - it is the bunker shape and placement, along with the greens design, that lets it down.

[David_Elvins]

David,

A bloke told me re Hammo GC: "We've seen it all before, but at least this time the views are nice."

Do you think he was selling Thommo and Co short?

No idea Scott, I think the two biggest elements of design are green contouring and playability.  Both are very hard to decern from photos.  Looking at the hole by holes it does atleast look like they have tried a few new things. 

[Josh Stevens]

He was given the gig at Lake Karrinyup in the 90's specifically to toughen the course up.  They wanted to get the Australian Open back but had been told that the course was too short.  So lots more yards, penal bunkers and small greens with big tilts was the result - and what happened, Ernie Els went out and shot 29 under in the Jonnie Walker.  Go figure.

[Scott Warren]

David,

A bloke told me re Hammo GC: "We've seen it all before, but at least this time the views are nice."

Do you think he was selling Thommo and Co short?

No idea Scott, I think the two biggest elements of design are green contouring and playability.  Both are very hard to decern from photos.  Looking at the hole by holes it does atleast look like they have tried a few new things. 

Yeah, I reckon you're right. I thought he sounded like he was talking out his arse!

[Neil_Crafter]

 

Work at Lake Karrinyup redesigned within 20 years.
Work at the Lakes redesigned within 5 years.  
Dukes Course, St Andrews redesigned within 15 years.
Two of the threee Mornington Peninsula courses (National Ocean and Moonah Open) rank significantly lower than other modern courses on similar ground - St Andrews Beach, National Moonah, Dunes, National Old, Moonah Legends which would mean in the eyes of many they were lost opportunites.  

David
You can also put down two clubs where they were the consulting architects, Barwon Heads and Riversdale that we (Crafter + Mogford) have since done master plans for and are their architects now.

Most of the work at LKCC was Mike Wolveridge's.

[Matt Day]

He was given the gig at Lake Karrinyup in the 90's specifically to toughen the course up.  They wanted to get the Australian Open back but had been told that the course was too short.  So lots more yards, penal bunkers and small greens with big tilts was the result - and what happened, Ernie Els went out and shot 29 under in the Jonnie Walker.  Go figure.

That was one of the first tournaments Els played with the  Pro V1 when it was launched. He just monstered it around LK and made the fairway bunkering redundant in four days.