Profile of The Country Club in Pepper Pike Ohio is posted

[Ran Morrissett]

By now, we appreciate that Flynn built a limited number of eighteen-hole courses and that his best courses reflect the high degree of personal attention that he bestowed among them. The camera might be more in love with MacKenzie's bolder features/bunkers, but for subtly and nuance, Flynn's designs are tough to beat. This point was driven home to me twice again this year, one time after a tour of some of Merion's holes with Wayne Morrison at the Walker Cup followed two months later by a first time visit around The Country Club in Pepper Pike, Ohio.

Even within this Discussion Group, I haven't read much about this Cleveland gem. Case in point is the 17th at TCC which Wayne argues has ever bit the playing merit as the seventeenth at National Golf Links of America - and he may be right! Still, TCC is far from a one hit wonder as just the opposite is true: top to bottom it is so strong that I put it with the likes of Oak Hill. The only difference is that it doesn't court the spot light via hosting televised events.

The more you see of Flynn's work, the more you appreciate it (the same can't be said for most architects). Wayne and I have started a Feature Interview on Flynn and his eye-popping 17th here will feature as one of the questions.

Cleveland's plethora of fine to great courses including The Country Club somehow mysteriously flies under the radar as a prime example of the Golden Age of architecture. How? I don't know but we are going to keep adding profiles from this great golfing area of the country.

It will be interesting to read your reaction to the course profile. I know Tom Paul and Wayne are both big fans, which says a lot as Philly guys rarely say anything nice about a course elsewhere   . For instance, how does TCC stack up against Flynn's Philadelphia work?

Cheers,

[Rory Connaughton]

Ran:

  Thanks for the wonderful profile. I'm obviously a fan of Flynn but I have not been to TCC.  What I see from the profile is a very very sophisticated course.  I believe our super spent time there as an assistant before he moved to Kirtland and he has always raved.  Is this perhaps the most sophisticated Flynn outside of Shinnecock?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Another great write up.  I really like the way the greens sit at the 15th and 17th.

[Ronald Montesano]

"Flynn had a knack for cutting bunkers into the landforms to make uphill par three holes still be fun to play."

Rather than come out against this declaration on the "fun" factor of the 11th at Pepper Pike, I'll ask the brethren, how does cutting bunkers into the landforms make uphill par threes fun to play?  Fun to look at?  Absolutely.  Uphill bunker shot over another bunker?  Hmmm.  Some of these bunkers cause hefty recovery splashes, I imagine.  Thoughts?

[Ronald Montesano]

NOW I want to know where the aerial photo of 15th came from.  It was as though you read my mind, as I wanted that exact angle to see the finish of the hole.  It reminds me a bit of Bethpage Black's 4th and the 18th at the new Hurdzan-Fry Harvest Hill in Orchard Park, NY.  What a marvelous photo.

[Kyle Harris]

Ran,

The handful of members from Pepper Pike I met at the Flynn Invitational in October are quite proud of their golf course and its standing. Most were duly impressed with Lancaster CC (the host) as well.

TCC Pepper Pike is connected to the Flynn course in Lakeland, Florida: Cleveland Heights.

[mike_malone]

 I have found that Flynn courses are best appreciated through just playing them. I have rarely been distracted when on his courses. My focus is on planning the next shot.

   BTW   I think it's time for Wayne to come back to gca.com.

[Rory Connaughton]

I suspect that his new venture with Jeff Silverman may have taken the place of GCA.

[mike_malone]

 Rory,

    I'm selfish; I want his knowledge here. I can put up with him calling me an idiot

[Kyle Harris]

Based on that read... seems Wayne is back on GCA.com in his own way.

All for it.

[Peter Ferlicca]

When I was looking at this fantastic course profile of The Country Club in Pepper Pike (With Ran doing them in the fall it just makes the golf courses look awesome) I noticed the 17th tee shot looked very familiar.  Then it hit me, it looks exactly like the tee shot on #9 at Pacific Dunes, which is also a great hole.  I wonder if Doak had the 17th tee shot at Pepper Pike stored in his memory bank when he was designing Pac Dunes.  Look at how close the two tee shots look alike, obviously it is quite different for the approach shot since Pac Dunes has two greens to go at.  And it also looks like the 3rd tee shot at Old MacDonald, they all require the draw over the hill

The Country Club at Pepper Pike 17th Tee Shot


Pacific Dunes 9th Tee shot


Old MacDonald 3rd Tee Shot

[K. Krahenbuhl]

   BTW   I think it's time for Wayne to come back to gca.com.

Agreed!

[Ronald Montesano]

The 14th at Park Club, a Colt-Allison piece in suburban Buffalo, has a similar look and feel to that tee shot view.

[Kyle Harris]

Similar (in look, at least) to the tee shot on the 5th at Lancaster CC.

[J_ Crisham]

Similar (in look, at least) to the tee shot on the 5th at Lancaster CC.

Kyle,  I was thinking the same thing. Just another of the ho hum doglegs at Lancaster- talk about holes with great movement. #4, 5, 10, 15 ,16 are as good a collection of par 4 doglegs that you will see. Great mixture of long brawny holes and shorter sporty ones such as #4 and 16.         Jack

[Mark_F]

I like this quote from the preamble;

"Simply put, there is no guarantee that the golfer will have a good view – or any view for that matter – of the putting surface on nearly half the holes."

Ran appears to consider this a virtue - amazing how many people don't.

[Phil McDade]

I like this quote from the preamble;

"Simply put, there is no guarantee that the golfer will have a good view – or any view for that matter – of the putting surface on nearly half the holes."

Ran appears to consider this a virtue - amazing how many people don't.

Mark:

This is a very good point, and I'm interesting in the evolution of design that brought this about. A number of old courses I've played in recent years by architects perhaps not as well-known or held in high regard as Flynn -- James Foulis, Tweedie, Bendelow -- have used this element in their designs time and again in courses I've played, and it's always one of the best features of those courses. More modern designs seem compelled to present everything to the golfer visually, making the shot merely an element of execution, unburdened by uncertainty. What do you think it was about architects pre-WWII that led to their decision to "hide" greens and landing areas?

[David Lott]

Thanks for this interesting profile. I played Flynn's Eagles Mere an uncountable number of times as a youth and young man. EM is not the equal of this course. EM was built with a lesser budget on lesser ground for a considerably less ambitious client. But it shares the characteristic of being a "feel" golf course for some of the same reasons--elevation changes (radical in the EM example), lots of trees, small greens. It was fun for me to read this profile and make the mental comparisons.

[David Lott]

PFerlicca:

Interesting photo comparison. I don't have photos of them but first at Elie would fit in well to this sequence, as well as the first at Flynn's Eagles Mere.

[Tim Nugent]

This is a very good point, and[b] I'm interesting in the evolution of design that brought this about.[/b] A number of old courses I've played in recent years by architects perhaps not as well-known or held in high regard as Flynn -- James Foulis, Tweedie, Bendelow -- have used this element in their designs time and again in courses I've played, and it's always one of the best features of those courses. More modern designs seem compelled to present everything to the golfer visually, making the shot merely an element of execution, unburdened by uncertainty. What do you think it was about architects pre-WWII that led to their decision to "hide" greens and landing areas? [/quote]

Phil, since we can't channel those responsible, all we do is surmize.  My feeling is that most courses were built as clubs and Local Knowledge was a charactistic that the members would gain from repeat play while putting those from other clubs at a disadvantage in matches.  Also, the time and expense (given the construction tools of the day) did not warrent the massive earthmoving of the post Golden Era.  Finnally, it was "accepted practice" to have obsurred and blind features. But as the blood flowed out of more and more players heads and their lawyers got involved, designers had to "foresee" possible injurious situations and alleviate them lest they open the club and themselves to neglegence suits.  As more players frequented public and resort courses - local knowledge was lost and "not knowing where to go" or "if someone was up there" began to play more into the formulation of design.

Since inception, golf design has been constantly evolving.   It is more "reactionary" than anything else.  So my feeling is designers went away from these features because they were reacting to what I speeled out above. It probably wasn't just one thing but a combnation of many.

[Ronald Montesano]

Good notion, the old home course/field advantage one.  I'll be interested to see if it holds water.  I like it from a romantic standpoint but I don't know if it has legs from a practical, design-based one.

[Tim Nugent]

Guess I'm just a romantic at heart.  It's just that I used to hear that phrase much more when I was younger than I do now.  Although it may be a just a small reason, I think it goes to the mindset of the time.  People just  took things more at face value and dealt with it.  Today, there are a lot more "experts" (because the slept in a Holiday Inn last night) , a feeling of "entitlement" ie 'I shouldn't have to put up with that - I'm "entitled" to see all , my favorite "it's too hard - not for me but for some of the guys I play with".

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the notion.  It is the ability to soar over the boundary, into the unknown, that captivates me.  That's why the driver's headcover rarely rests on the club head!!!  We should get to Pepper Pike, Tim.

[Tim Nugent]

Aye, that we should.

[Sean_A]

When I was looking at this fantastic course profile of The Country Club in Pepper Pike (With Ran doing them in the fall it just makes the golf courses look awesome) I noticed the 17th tee shot looked very familiar.  Then it hit me, it looks exactly like the tee shot on #9 at Pacific Dunes, which is also a great hole.  I wonder if Doak had the 17th tee shot at Pepper Pike stored in his memory bank when he was designing Pac Dunes.  Look at how close the two tee shots look alike, obviously it is quite different for the approach shot since Pac Dunes has two greens to go at.  And it also looks like the 3rd tee shot at Old MacDonald, they all require the draw over the hill

The Country Club at Pepper Pike 17th Tee Shot


Pacific Dunes 9th Tee shot


Old MacDonald 3rd Tee Shot

This tee shot reminds me of Rye's 16th.


The variety of green-sites here look wonderful.  I also like that the course doesn't look too hilly.  This was one of my biggest complaints of anotehr Flynn course I played.  It seemed like I was looking at the same approach shot too often.

Ciao