Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping

[TEPaul]

Not exactly unsung because fortunately, and according to Geoff Shackelford's (perhaps the most intelligent researcher/analyst I'm aware of) good book on Thomas and George Thomas's own really excellent book on architecture, Sam Heebner was given real credit for both Whitemarsh and some of the many other contributions he made to the USGA, GAP and golf around here. It has also interested me the type of credit Thomas gave to both Hugh Wilson and Ross during and for his evolving career in golf architecture.

Shackelford has felt that Thomas very well may be just about the most imaginative golf architect the field or art has ever known and for years I've tended to agree with him.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Thomas himself evidently said the Heebner co-designed WV with him, and Heebner was also involved heavily with Thomas at Spring Lake, and both helped construct Ross's design at Sunnybrook.

Certainly, Thomas's later stellar design work after WW1 helped to increase his rep over his friend, the much beloved Sam Heebner who died in the late teens.

[TEPaul]

If I was to create a list (even though I hate lists) of who I think may've been the most conceptually and imaginatively brilliant men golf architecture has ever known I think George Thomas would definitely land in my top 2-4. He does get discussed from time to time but for the latter he probably doesn't get discussed enough or well enough.

[Tom MacWood]

Thomas must have flown under the radar. Has anyone found anything about him and golf architecture in the Philadelphia press?

[Tom MacWood]

I recently found this article on Seaview from 1942.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks for the article.   It's good to see that both Robinson and Wilson were actually credited with the design work in their day, as opposed to Donald Ross in today's accounts.

What part of the world was that article from?    The writer's style is rather over-the-top engaging.

[Mike Cirba]

by the by, Tom...where do you think Mr. Trevor got his misinformation on the local legend William Robinson from?   Do you think he simply was thrown on the scent by Fred Byrod's mistaken 1939 article in the Philadelphia papers, or perhaps by Robinson himself who was still alive and perhaps took personal credit?   As mentioned before, I have an article from the mid-20s that calls Robinson the "architect" of Ocean City, today's Greate Bay CC, when we know for certain that Willie Park Jr. did the course so who knows what he was telling people after his collaborators passed on to their great reward.   

Tom...I'm only kidding!   Sort of... 

Seriously, thanks for the article and I'm thinking that this coming winter Joe and I need to get back down to AC and go through the more prominent newspaper to find the real story.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Just like with a number of these old courses I don't think the true architectural history is going to be found in newspapers, and particularly not in later newspapers. Like with most all of these other stories of those old courses I think the true story will only be found in contemporaneous material from the clubs themselves or the people who were originally involved from those clubs.

I think this has been proven true again and again on here and elsewhere with the likes of Myopia, Merion, Pine Valley, Philmont and more recently Seaview, Cobbs Creek and North Shore. There have been others such as Concord and Kittansett where the material did not come from the clubs but from original architectural drawings that those clubs had been heretofore unaware of.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm pretty confident that Atlantic City CC pro William Robinson had some leading role in the original course at Seaview, with collaborating "expert" help, one of whom was Hugh Wilson, who is mentioned most predominantly in the local/regional news accounts in 1913/14 timeframe the course actually was built and opened, given partial credit by some accounts and full credit by others.  

During a time when there was virtually no golf existing between Philadelphia and Atlantic City, I suspect one of Robinson's chief assets was that he knew the game and was "there", and could spend the time overseeing the course development.

The 1942 article Tom MacWood produced was a NY Sun piece as promo to the PGA Championship being held there that year.

Interestingly, or perhaps insightfully, the article fails to mention that the course that was played for that tournament was actually 9 holes from the original 18, and 9 holes designed by William Flynn (the "woods" holes) in the mid 20s.

I don't think the reporter dug very deep for the info, and the fact that Robinson was still alive and in the NJ area at the time may have been part of the lore/lure of the story.   Nevertheless, it's a bit more evidence, and I'm always glad to see stuff surface.

[TEPaul]

At that point I believe the Flynn course at Seaview ("Woods") was only nine holes and so it wouldn't surprise me if a PGA tournament was played on nine holes of the Bay course and the nine hole Woods course; they aren't very far apart.

Some on here, probably MacWood, have asked on here why the likes of a Wilson or a Thomas were not mentioned more in the press back then for what they did in architecture. I might say that one logical reason was that men like that may not have really wanted to be mentioned much in the press---eg they never exactly sought out publicity because they weren't exactly in the business of golf course architecture or anything else to do with golf; they were that remarkable genre of the "amateur/sportsmen" architect who despite never being paid for anything they did in golf did some of the most remarkable architectural work in the history of golf architecture.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I would wholeheartedly agree...even in thos few articles about Wilson where he's sort of interviewed you can tell very clearly he wasn't seeking the spotlight.

The early pros on the other hand, especially those seeking to supplement modest incomes through course design work, seemed to actively court the press, as witnessed in the recent North Shore article that also mentioned Strong's work at Engineers.

[TEPaul]

"The early pros on the other hand, especially those seeking to supplement modest incomes through course design work, seemed to actively court the press, as witnessed in the recent North Shore article that also mentioned Strong's work at Engineers."


Mike:

I also don't think it is very hard to see that some of those "amateur/sportsmen" architects who did such remarkable work (even if never in large quantities) definitely had some of their favorite up and coming professional architects they were promoting. This most certainly can be said by what Wilson said about Flynn for a number of years----never really in the press but most certainly in the personal correspondences we have from the man. The same can be said of both Wilson brothers for Hugh Alison.

I assume some of the others did the same thing with other up and coming professional architects they liked such as Macdonald with Raynor and even Charles Banks, and perhaps Thomas in California with Bell.

It is my distinct opinion, that along about the end of WW1 most of those early "amateur/sportsmen" architects who had done such famous work that took them so much time on single projects really never entered into those long term projects again like Myopia, GCGC, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion East, Pine Valley, that became so famous and made them famous.

I think the reason they stopped at that point is because they realized that at that point they didn't need to do projects like that anymore because the professional element had become far better organized and dedicated and were beginning to devote themselves solely to golf course architecture rather than a multitude of other jobs at the same time.

The latter point is one of the primary points I tried to make in that article ("Hugh Wilson and the Age of the amateur/sportsman architect") in the 2009 Walker Cup program at Merion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've only skim read most of the posts and will attempt a more detailed reading this weekend.

But, one question I have is the following.

In the time frame/s that Colt visited AC, when travelling from Philly to AC by rail or motor, how close/convenient would that be to PV ?

Was there a nearby rail stop for Clementon ?

If Colt was traveling from Philly to AC and back, why wouldn't he avail himself of the opportunity to visit PV ?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike:

Just like with a number of these old courses I don't think the true architectural history is going to be found in newspapers, and particularly not in later newspapers. Like with most all of these other stories of those old courses I think the true story will only be found in contemporaneous material from the clubs themselves or the people who were originally involved from those clubs.

I think this has been proven true again and again on here and elsewhere with the likes of Myopia, Merion, Pine Valley, Philmont and more recently Seaview, Cobbs Creek and North Shore. There have been others such as Concord and Kittansett where the material did not come from the clubs but from original architectural drawings that those clubs had been heretofore unaware of.

TEP
Historical research involves gathering information from a number of different sources: club documents, personal journals, personal letters, personal documents, historical archives, census information, business records, land records, legal documents, immigration information, military records, newspaper articles, magazine articles, etc, etc. There is no reason to ignore or exclude any of this information, and anyone who would is only stifling their own efforts to discover what happened, which is what historical research is all about. The more information the better, and never has there been so much information available for anyone who is interested and has the desire. And just about all the sources I just mentioned are now digitized, that is a major breakthrough, not just for golf architecture historians, but for all historians.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You stated, "And just about all the sources I just mentioned are now digitized, that is a major breakthrough, not just for golf architecture historians, but for all historians..."

Many of those you mentioned can be found in difital format if one knows where to look, that is problem number one. Problem number two is that the first four that you mentioned, "club documents, personal journals, personal letters, personal documents..." almost NEVER are and requires on to gain and maintain a personal relationship(s) with peron(s) or club involved and secondly that one mus travel to them to view these and HOPE that one is given permission to either copy or record by hand thes items...

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Historical research involves gathering information from a number of different sources: club documents, personal journals, personal letters, personal documents, historical archives, census information, business records, land records, legal documents, immigration information, military records, newspaper articles, magazine articles, etc, etc. There is no reason to ignore or exclude any of this information, and anyone who would is only stifling their own efforts to discover what happened, which is what historical research is all about. The more information the better, and never has there been so much information available for anyone who is interested and has the desire. And just about all the sources I just mentioned are now digitized, that is a major breakthrough, not just for golf architecture historians, but for all historians."



Tom MacWood:

I could not agree more with that statement of yours above----eg historical research and competent historical analysis involves gathering information from all sources----from newspapers and periodicals to contemporaneous club administrative records and everything else between the spectrum of those two types of source information and material.

And that is precisely why I have always found it so ironic, and frankly contradictory, that you would make statements like that one above, that again, I could not agree with more. I say that because you so constantly either refuse or just fail to establish any personal relationships with clubs you make the subjects of your historical GCA interest. And I also say that, as Phil Young just did as well above, because you could far better actually see and carefully consider their extremely important contemporaneous administrative, albeit it private, material and records.

I personally and actually look at, carefully consider, and analyze it all with the subject courses of my interest, including all the newspaper and periodical articles about them, but it seems all you ever actually do or look at and seriously consider is the latter. To me that is doing less than half a proper and competent job of research and analysis. And that has been your constant MO on this website as long as you've been on it which is a pretty long time now.

[Tom MacWood]

Over the years I have been helped by members and historians at numerous golf clubs, but unlike you I don't get on here and brag about it, and I see no purpose in doing so.

[TEPaul]

"Over the years I have been helped by members and historians at numerous golf clubs, but unlike you I don't get on here and brag about it, and I see no purpose in doing so."


Tom MacWood:


I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who reads this website you sure do have your own way about bragging about what you do with your interest in GCA's history.

That statement of yours above is a very poor and very weak excuse and attempt to cover up the fact you try to act the expert on the detailed architectural histories and architects of the likes of very important courses in this country such as Myopia, Merion East and Pine Valley (and a number of others) without ever having BEEN TO THOSE CLUBS much less even attempting to establish a personal research relationship with them as some of the rest of us who really do know a good deal about them and their memberships have and have to do.

Essentially, there is just no way of getting around the fact that is what any really good historical researcher, analyst, historian does and has to do without exception; and you most certainly are not the first exception to that reality and rule and you're never going to be.

Your attempts to maintain that it can be otherwise are a sham, disingenuous, evasive and most important of all completely discovered at this point by the viewers and contributors on this website. That is probably why you and your opinions and contentions have completely failed the all-important aspect of peer review on here on some of these recent threads, particularly the one on North Shore.

It has been too long in coming, in my opinion, but thankfully it has finally come.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I've never written anything or planned on writing anything about Merion or Myopia. I did write an essay on Crump and was assisted by the man who wrote their most recent club history and had access to all the club records.

I find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research. You are funny. 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I've only skim read most of the posts and will attempt a more detailed reading this weekend.

But, one question I have is the following.

In the time frame/s that Colt visited AC, when travelling from Philly to AC by rail or motor, how close/convenient would that be to PV ?

Was there a nearby rail stop for Clementon ?

If Colt was traveling from Philly to AC and back, why wouldn't he avail himself of the opportunity to visit PV ?

Pat,

  Hopefully Kyle Harris will read this and weigh in with more detailed railroad-related information.  What I can tell you is, the Absecon NJT train station is about 2-3 miles south of the club, where Rt. 30 intersects with Rt. 9.  100 years ago, it wasn't NJT, it was the Pennsylvania RR.  (I think).  I believe both the Reading and PRR ran competing lines into Atlantic City.  If I recall correctly, the main train terminal was where the outlets are located today.  

I believe, and I may be mistaken, that today's NJT Atlantic City line follows the PRR right of way.  Reading RR trains ran from Camden to ACY and other points in South Jersey.
There were several mergers and takeovers before this time as well.

In the early 1900s, Rt. 30 would have run from Camden to Atlantic City, as it does today.  As you may know, Rt. 30 (White Horse Pike) crosses Rt. 9 (down there, it's called New York Rd) about 2 miles or so below the Seaview complex.  
Closer to Philadelphia, Rt. 30 passes through, or near, the borough of Clementon maybe a mile north of Pine Valley.
The "Black Horse Pike", or, Rt 168 up in Camden & Gloucester Counties, joining up with Rt 322 in Washington Twsp, seems to me a little too far south of a route to take, although that runs into Atlantic City as well.

So, it seems in both cases, it would have been convenient to visit both PV and Seaview, by rail or train.    I am not certain if Clementon had a station.  It is possible there was a "whistle stop" in Clementon or PV.  

So, to answer your question, Pat, it would be reasonable that Colt could have visited PV, Seaview, and possibly Atlantic City CC, as there was transportation infrastructure there at the time, both road as well as rail. 

[Mike Cirba]

Pat,

This was indded the time that Crump convinced Colt to come down to PV, in May 1913.

There is a thread somewhere here where Tilly documents it all in a timeline (put together by Joe Bausch) that makes clear that Crump already had a good deal of the routing together before Colt arrived but Colt helped bridge the gaps and made many of his own contributions during what turned into something like a two week visit.

[Joe Bausch]

There is a thread somewhere here where Tilly documents it all in a timeline (put together by Joe Bausch) that makes clear that Crump already had a good deal of the routing together before Colt arrived but Colt helped bridge the gaps and made many of his own contributions during what turned into something like a two week visit.

Those articles are on page 2 of this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37570.35/

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I've never written anything or planned on writing anything about Merion or Myopia."



Tom MacWood:

I realize that. And I feel it would be useless for you to try to write anything truly informative on the architectural histories of Merion or Myopia because you really don't know much about either club or course for the reasons I've cited.

I was only referring to what you have said about both of them on discussions about them on this DG with others that know more about them than you do because they have relationships with those clubs and have been able to analyze material from them that you haven't because you've never had those kinds of close relationships with those clubs and have even said you see no good reason or purpose in having a good relationship with them!  

[TEPaul]

"I did write an essay on Crump and was assisted by the man who wrote their most recent club history and had access to all the club records.

I find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research. You are funny."



Tom MacWood:


The man who wrote the most recent history of Pine Valley??

Do you even know the man's name?

He is a very fine friend of mine and like that Merchantville township manager you duped (who has stated that if you come to Merchantville, New Jersey he has a good mind to sue you) I have a good mind to just call the most recent history writer of PV's history and ask him if you did speak to him and what HIS OPINION is of what you two spoke about. When you spoke to him did you even bother to mention you were intending to write an article about Crump explaining he committed suicide or did you just conveniently avoid that as you did with that township manager?


You're a sham; I think you know it and I think you know I know it and by now I think most on here know it and I think you know that too, at this point. The final question is do you really want everyone to know it too? 


And finally, it seems you aren't even aware what I have written on historical GCA subjects. Perhaps the reason for that is unlike what you've done, most of what I've written were not done for GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but rather for more main-stream exposure. 

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Like a lot of things you say and claim on this website it seems you want to ignore altogether any questions about them, including the questions in the last post.

Why is that?