Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping

[Jaeger Kovich]

Joe,

Without rereading this thread.

Why would one architect lay out the course........... and then abandon it ?

And, why would another architect, who didn't route the course or design each hole, want to introduce the bunkering ?

Maybe the client didn't send the check! or they had a different sort of falling out... Either way Cal Club is MacKenzie bunkering on someone Macan's (or W. Watson's?) layout

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Without rereading this thread.

Why would one architect lay out the course........... and then abandon it ?

And, why would another architect, who didn't route the course or design each hole, want to introduce the bunkering ?

From Mike Cirba's IMO "Who Was Hugh Wilson:":

Seaview

Much like both courses at Merion, Seaview was built with limited bunkering with the idea that hazards were best located after careful observation and study of play.  Tillinghast wrote in January 1915, “Seaview will never be the test of golf that Pine Valley is.  It was never contemplated as such.  The course is flat with just enough of an undulation in the fairway to rob the flatness of the ground.   Some of the best courses in Great Britain are flat, but thanks to what is known as the Mid Surrey or Alpinization scheme of bunkering, the courses are really of a championship caliber.   And that is what Seaview will be in another year.   The bunkering has not yet been started and those who saw the course for the first time will be surprised when they see it a year from now…The greens, however, were a delight to all and in spite of their newness they will compare favorably with any course in the country…Each and every green is characteristic and no one resembles the other.  All are undulating and all are perfectly true.”

Golfwriter Verdant Greene, perhaps gently poking the movement that religiously copied holes from abroad wrote, “There has been no straining for effect at the Seaview course.  No famous hazards abroad or at home have been counterfeited there, nor have distances been stretched nor plans laid to keep contestants from drawing a long breath throughout the round…There are plenty of hazards which call for exact shots, but no ultra-penalization.   While the links, as is almost inevitable, being so near the sea, has not great variety of surface, being used as a farm up to two years ago, the putting greens present more undulations and humps than a camel’s back.  Even Garden City has been surpassed in that respect.”

Shortly after that “soft” summer opening, Clarence Geist fell deathly ill, and it wasn’t until he fully recovered that the course was officially opened with a prestigious, audacious four-ball tournament with top amateur golfers in the middle of January.   By that time, Hugh Wilson was looking to get back to the business of his real business, insurance.   He did find time in April of 1915, however, to return to Seaview to play as Francis Ouimet’s partner in defeating Clarence Geist and new Seaview professional Wilfred Reid in a highly publicized match, with Ouimet setting a new club record of 73.

The Seaview course that had its soft opening in summer of 1914 is the same routing that is today known as the Seaview “Bay Course”.   An opening day hole-by-hole description reads much like today’s course, and even though Donald Ross was engaged by Geist later in 1915 to “stiffen” the course with extensive bunkering, only some of Ross’s recommendations were ever followed.

[DMoriarty]

If memory serves, the missing subtext in the above account is that the original course came under considerable criticism.

[Dave Maberry]

Isn't the LPGA ShopRite Classic played on The Bay Course? 

This is attempt to tie this week's tournament to upcoming Women's US Open at LCC.

This from Lancaster News on 5/29:

Season In Full Swing

Women's Tour Enters Its Defining Stretch On The Road To Lancaster

By   Mike Gross

GALLOWAY, N.J. - This year's LPGA ShopRite Classic could be called, with minimal reaching, the U.S. Women's Open Lite.
 It's being held about 140 miles from Lancaster, by the Jersey Shore. It's a resort course, but the old-school kind, with a grand old clubhouse/hotel in the tradition of Pinehurst or Greenbrier.
 It is utterly not an appendage to a housing development.
 The golf course, like Lancaster Country Club, was designed by William Flynn.

[Joe Bausch]

Isn't the LPGA ShopRite Classic played on The Bay Course? 

This is attempt to tie this week's tournament to upcoming Women's US Open at LCC.

This from Lancaster News on 5/29:

Season In Full Swing

Women's Tour Enters Its Defining Stretch On The Road To Lancaster

By   Mike Gross

GALLOWAY, N.J. - This year's LPGA ShopRite Classic could be called, with minimal reaching, the U.S. Women's Open Lite.
 It's being held about 140 miles from Lancaster, by the Jersey Shore. It's a resort course, but the old-school kind, with a grand old clubhouse/hotel in the tradition of Pinehurst or Greenbrier.
 It is utterly not an appendage to a housing development.
 The golf course, like Lancaster Country Club, was designed by William Flynn.

Well, the writer is at least lukewarm!

[John Burnes]

All-

I'm on the Board for the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) Golf Charity event held at Seaview this year on June 22.  Please consider sponsoring the event or maybe get your company to do so.  There is also a chance to win $10,000 with our Golf Ball Drop.  Lastly, I will buy you a drink and reveal the true architect..

http://golf.chop.edu/about-the-event/

[MCirba]

As somewhat of a denouement to this thread, I was at Merion this previous weekend and as it turns out this whole architectural attribution of Seaview could have been solved way back in 1981.   At that time, Charles Price, the wonderful late golf writer penned a piece for Golf Digest previewing the US Open at Merion titled "Merion Lies In Wait".

In response, Price received a typed letter from Hugh Wilson's oldest daughter, Louise. that began; "May I introduce myself as the daughter of Hugh Wilson, arcitect (sp) of Merion." and goes on to correct Price that "he (Wilson) never saw Scotland until he went there to study the golf courses."   The article had erroneously stated that Wilson was born and raised in Scotland.

She also corrects on other matters; "Also, he did do two more courses - Seaview at Absecon, NJ and a public course somewhere around Philadelphia."    The article seemed to imply that Wilson designed no other courses but those at Merion. 

The letter also mentions that "He had reservations on the Titanic for his return trip but was detained and missed the boat."   It seems Wilson extended his visit to see/play other courses, so see...golf really can save your life! 

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is an old article about Opening Day at Seaview from the Hartford Courant-January 10, 1915:

[Joe Bausch]

The course is now giving co-design credit:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/SeaviewBay/pages/page_9.html?

 

[MCirba]

Thanks Bret nice article.  Most of the early articles I've seen have similarly commented on the unique creativity of the greens.

Joe, nice to see they're finally giving Wilson some credit but they have those two names in the wrong order.

[MCirba]

I'm not sure if this January 1915 New York Herald article has been posted here prior.   It provides a critical review of the course based on an "Opening Day" tournament that had been held a few days prior.

[MCirba]

Some old Atlantic City newspapers have recently come online for searching so I thought this pretty detailed article from the Atlantic City Daily Press dated July 29, 1914 might fit well on this older thread.

[Mike_Trenham]

The $250,000 investment mentioned here converts to $7.3mm in 2023.

[MCirba]

The $250,000 investment mentioned here converts to $7.3mm in 2023.

Pretty good bargain with no architectural fees. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Of all the things written here Joe Bausch may have topped them all in this thread.


Are we really going to believe that a golf writer had the name  " VERDANT GREENE "    cmon man

[MCirba]

Archie,


Love the names of the Philly/NJ golf writers back then...Peter Putter, Joe Bunker, Verdant Greene, et.al.   


Recently, a host of Atlantic City newspapers became available to search online.  You may be interested to know that I let Jim & Doug Fraser know (through a Facebook group on Golf History) that I was able to learn who designed the nine hole Pomona Golf Course that opened in 1947.   It was one of the first black-owned clubs/courses in the country and was originally known as Apex Golf & Country Club, built on Madame Washington's farm.


It was Leo and Sonny Fraser, with an assist by "golf architect" William "Bill" Entwhistle.   They were very instrumental in integrating that club during its early days and were there for the opening day.


Also, Joe found that Willie Park came back to your former club in around 1923 to see how construction of the course was coming along.


Hope all is well.