[Mike_Clayton]

Chris,

A bit of both - It grows on me and perhaps those above were surviving just a bit on past reputations.
From 4- 10 there is not too much difference - perhaps they are not completely interchangable but its close.Same with the bottom 10.

[Chris Kane]

From 4- 10 there is not too much difference - perhaps they are not completely interchangable but its close.Same with the bottom 10.

You raise an important point.  For years, many of us considered there to be an untouchable top 5 in Australia (RMW, RME, KH, NSW, RA), with BD joining it to form a top 6 clearly separate from the rest.  Would it be fair to say that its now a top 3 (RMW, BD, KH), with another half dozen courses in the second tier?

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Moonah - for mine the 11-7 routing is a capital offence which prevents it rising above the back end of the top 10. 

[Mark_F]

I am a fan of the Moonah course - lots of really good holes even if it is a root march back from the 12th tee when it's into the wind.

Mike,

In "From The Inside", you said that "Every course ought to have a couple", of little holes that reject even marginal shots.

Which are those holes at Nat Moonah?

[Matt Day]

Interesting to see how some clubs see lists like this as very important.

The General Manager's position at Lake Karrinyup is up for grabs at the moment and one of the key deliverables mentioned in the advert is to improve the Club's ranking amongst Australia's best golf clubs.

[Tyler Kearns]

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Moonah - for mine the 11-7 routing is a capital offence which prevents it rising above the back end of the top 10. 

Chris,

What do you mean by 11-7 routing?

TK

[Chris Kane]

What do you mean by 11-7 routing?

11 holes out to the furthest point on the property, then seven back to the clubhouse.

[David_Elvins]

Chris,

You don't like The Old Course with 11 holes out to the furthest point and 7 back?

[Chris Kane]

One, the furthest point on TOC is the 9th green.  Two, you play an equal number of holes in each direction.

[David_Elvins]

I am no geographer, Chris, but it looks to me like the 7/11 green is the furthest point from the clubhouse on TOC.........(not that it really mattters   )

[Chris Kane]

The 9th green is the furthest point in the sense of where you play golf.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike and others, if you could rank Elleston, what position would you put it in?

It looks like architect/raters can rank their own courses.  Any thoughts on whether that is good, bad, indifferent? 

[Brian Phillips]

The 9th green is the furthest point in the sense of where you play golf.

The 9th hole is the furthest point in the sense of where you play golf on any 18 hole golf course.   

[Kyle Henderson]

Where is the "Lakes" course? Who designed it etc.? It's never popped up on my radar before.

Edit: Disregard, I managed to dig up some info.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jim,

The brief at Elleston - as I understand it - was to make it difficult and it was to be a cart course.
How do you rate a really, really difficult course that is all  but unwalkable?
If the brief had been make it walkable and great fun it would could have been higher than my estimation of between 10 and 12.

Chris,

I think you make a good point about the routing.It is relentless and no fun coming in when the holes are into the wind.
I understand your next question is going to be 'Why did you rate it so highly then?"

I think it is a really good course

[Josh Stevens]

Wow - when was the last time Royal Canberra and the Australian found themselves so unloved and outside the top 25.  About time - but it will cause some spluttering in Kensington and Westbourne Woods

[Chris Kane]

I think you make a good point about the routing.It is relentless and no fun coming in when the holes are into the wind.
I understand your next question is going to be 'Why did you rate it so highly then?"

I think it is a really good course

Mike, this might be there first time where I vehemently disagree with your assessment of a golf course!

In my opinion, the Moonah is a good course with many good holes, particularly among the first eleven holes.  But I just can't see how it belongs in the elite group. 

It is easily the worst routing of any course in the top 25 - its a  course where the fun ends at the 11th green on a good portion of days.

If the course had several great holes, it might stand a chance of overcoming its most basic flaw.  But there isn't a single par-3, 4 or 5 which would be in the top 10 holes of its par in Australia.  That just doesn't cut it for a top 5 course.

[Mark_F]

If the course had several great holes, it might stand a chance of overcoming its most basic flaw.  But there isn't a single par-3, 4 or 5 which would be in the top 10 holes of its par in Australia.  That just doesn't cut it for a top 5 course.

Chris,

Perhaps a trifle unfair on poor old Nat Moonah, given that RM West, KH and Barnbougle probably account for 7-8 of the best par fours in Australia.

What would be your 10 best par fives in Australia?

[David_Elvins]

its a  course where the fun ends at the 11th green on a good portion of days.

Chris,

The 12th hole runs in the exact opposite direction to the 18th.  The wind direction varies quite a lot over the last 7 holes.

[Emil Weber]

Mike and others, if you could rank Elleston, what position would you put it in?

It looks like architect/raters can rank their own courses.  Any thoughts on whether that is good, bad, indifferent? 

I think is okay that architects can rank their own courses. It's not surprising they always rank their courses a bit higher than average because their own courses best represent their ideas of a good golf course.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mike and others, if you could rank Elleston, what position would you put it in?

It looks like architect/raters can rank their own courses.  Any thoughts on whether that is good, bad, indifferent? 

Jim

I have not seen Ellerston so cannot comment on it. It along with Capital (another exclusive club linked to The Crown Casino) have been in/out of rankings over the years.

Last bi-annual the panel was made up of many architects and for mine they had a significant degree of "bias" in their rankings. The fact that each person's rankings are published "highlights" such a position. Some obviously feel fondly of their own work more than others.

[Mike_Clayton]

Chris,

Do you think the quality of holes like 2,3,7,10,11,15 and 18 make up for the issue with the routing? - where I completly agree with your point.
They are really good holes and the supporting cast is pretty strong.
Is it a case of a lot of good holes failing to make up for a poor routing?
I must say I find no joy once you get to the 12th tee - despite the holes coming in being individually good.

[Jim McCann]

For Mike Clayton:

Is it possible to view the other panellist selections somewhere?

If not, do you know if anyone else ranked Laguna Whitsundays (Turtle Point),
Bonville International, Heritage (St John) or Lakelands?

I presume you are happy that these four did not make it onto the final 50 as you
didn't rank them yourself.

Finally, hats off to the panel for excluding Ellerston because they do not offer tee times!

I only wish ALL ranking lists did the same, especially for courses in the US where the member
only policy of so many clubs is now being replicated by a number of clubs operating close to
the very cradle of the game in Scotland.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jim,

I believe there is a big difference between private playgrounds such as Ellerston and private members clubs such as the US courses you allude to...

Regardless, I think NO course should be excluded unless the rating of that course is completely skewed by the inability to play it...

[Kevin Pallier]

The interesting question for me is whether a 4800m course - Healesville - can be a legitimate top 50 course.
If there are a bunch of really good holes - no matter how short - should it be in there?

As far as I'm concerned, yes a 4800m course could be a legitimate top 50 course.

As far as reality is concerned - it will never happen.

Mike

If Royal Worlington as a 9 holer can make a GB&I Top50 why can't it ? I look forward to seeing Healsville.

BTW - could Frankston be worthy in your eyes ?

[Matthew Mollica]

Jim,

I was one of the panel members. Kevin Pallier is another.
I think one more member (apart from Mike) might be on GCA and a few might lurk.

I rated Laguna Whitsundays.

Here's my list as a comparison, and for the sake of discussion.

Royal Melbourne (West)
Barnbougle Dunes
Kingston Heath
New South Wales
Royal Melbourne (East)
The National (Moonah)
Royal Adelaide
St Andrews Beach
Kennedy Bay
Victoria
Newcastle
Peninsula (South)
The National (Old)
Commonwealth
Woodlands
Peninsula (North)
The Lakes
Metropolitan
The Cut
Yarra Yarra
Grange (West)
Barwon Heads
Magenta Shores
Portsea
Brookwater
13th Beach (Beach)
Ranfurlie
Lake Karrinyup
The Grand
The Dunes
Royal Queensland
Joondalup
Kooyonga
Settlers Run
Port Fairy
The Glades
The Vines
Laguna Whitsundays
Royal Sydney
Hope Island
The Australian
Hyatt Regency Coolum
Huntingdale
Royal Canberra
The Heritage (Henley)
Moonah Links Legends
Sanctuary Lakes
The National (Ocean)
Club Pelican
Pacific Dunes

The Heritage (St. John) and Lakelands just misses for me. I had both on my list in 2008 and 2006.
The emergence of new courses, and the work done on older layouts has seen the quality in 25-50 grow.
Courses such as St. John & Lakelands have been pushed out despite consistency in their presentation.
I have never rated Bonville in 3 editions of the ratings. I don't think it's up to much.

FYI - each 24 month period prior to the rankings, I've played each of my top 50 (and then some) at least once each.

MM

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()