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Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2009, 01:47:36 PM »
We wake up the next morning and it's another beautiful day, unfortunately, there's little in the way of wind, not even the slightest prevailing wind from the SSE  ;D

We have breakfast, assemble the herd, and head off to the practice tee.

After hitting balls for 15 minutes and a few putts, the foursomes are selected and we head to the first tee.

On the first tee I notice that a strange metamorphosis has taken place overnight.

Last night, Ran was all bravado, crowing about his destruction of the unsuspecting Huckaby, and his pending crushing of yours truely.
This morning, high pitched whining has replaced baritone/bass bravado from Ran.

He's insisting on an inordinate number of shots, so many shots that the match would be over shortly after the turn.
One outrageous request suggests that a shot a hole would be fair.  I tell him it would be more than fair, it would be great ...... for his bank account.

The whining continues unabated.

Ran has now done a 180.  Instead of telling me about the great shots he hit yesterday against Huckaby, which I had already heard about at dinner, he's now telling me about his poor shots, unfortunately for him, he can't recall many, but, he keeps repeating the few he hit during the course of his round, trying to expand them to universal status.

Ran eventually sees that I'll not yield to his initial, outrageous,shot proposal and now alters his strategy, fixing on 14 shots.
This proposal is immediately rejected.  Ran now drops, not one, but two shots, down to 12, thinking that I perceive the two shot drop as a real bargain, while forgetting about the insanity of giving him 12 shots.  To add some context to the matter, I think Ran is a six handicap at the time.  He could be a little lower or higher.  Even at 12 it's a bad bet for me.

He now changes tunes, and starts telling me how lucky he was to beat Huckaby the previous day.
Was it the orange juice and pancakes that made him change his tune ?
This revelation on his part is greeted with disbelief by everyone on the first tee who attended dinner the previous night.

Seeing the look of disbelief on the surrounding faces, he immediately sees the wisdom in changing tactics, this time opting for the obsolescence of his equipment, versus my equipment.

I then remind him that his hickories were made within the last year and that my Ping Eye Two's were made twenty years ago in 1985.

He then claims that hickories don't perform as well as steel shafts, and if they did, everyone would be using them.
I agree, but tell him that Tom Huckaby is "Exhibit A", that Tom Huckaby used steel shafts to no avail, because the hickories carried too much in the way of additional shots.

I remind him that we're playing the same golf ball.

I then make my first and final counter offer.
I'll make three matches with you, one at 10 shots, another at 11 shots and the final match at 12 shots.
Ran leaps and accepts all three matches without further negotiation.
That's not a good sign for me.
This tells me that he's far more proficient with his hickories than we know.
It also tells me that he believes that he and his hickories are adjusting well to the windless conditions at Sand Hills

We start off on the first tee and I'm very surprised to see how well he's swinging and how good of a drive he hits.
I'm not so much impressed by the accuracy of his tee shot as I am by the distance of his tee shot.
It's rather startling and not what I had expected.
As if in one motion, as he completes his follow through on his drive, he turns and impishly smiles at me, implying, "Take that, you've been had".

Ya know, there's just something really, really, really special about competitive golf amongst friends.
I love the gesture, it ignites the afterburners of my competitive spirit.

As I prepare to drive, I tell myself, now, don't try to kill it and blow it well by him, just swing smooth, but with good acceleration.
I kill it and blow it far by him.  I turn and return his smile, and off we go, down to the first fairway.

Ran and I have had a good number of matches at some wonderful courses over the years and both of us are looking forward to this match.  We've always enjoyed each others company, the comraderie, the spirited needling, disecting and discussing the architecture, the golf course experience, and other topics not fit for print.  This match has been long anticipated.  I was getting weekly calls to make sure that I'd show up.  I would counter his jabs by telling him that if he's having difficulty getting to Sand Hills from North Carolina that I would send limos and private jets to make sure he shows up.

I hit my second shot to the base of the green, wedge up, make birdie and halve the hole with Ran who, as part of all three matches is getting a shot on all par 5's.  I feel that that's a victory for me, for if I can halve the shot holes, I stand a good chance of beating him on the non-shot holes, and winning all three matches.

But, I must say that I'm impressed by the distances he's hitting these hickories.

As we walk to the 5th tee we hear strange noises, yelling and screaming.
We look around and spot a white pickup truck riding the ridge with the cab and back filled with GCA.com'ers.
They are retracing, examining and analyzing the "Constellation Routing",  the one that hangs in the clubhouse.
Ran and I look at each other in disbelief.
Given the opportunity of playing this great course, they've chosen to ride around in the back of a pickup, over difficult terrain, to examine a phantom golf course, and, they're yelling and hollering the whole time.  This is the ultimate in GCA.com geekdom.
But, we understand
They ask, how is the match ?  Since there are three matches, it requires a more complicated answer, one which neither of us is prepared to give, so we say, all even, which was probably pretty accurate.

The 6th hole proves very enlightening.
The hole is tucked left.
I hit a good iron to the middle of the green, and I'll be damned if ran didn't hit a terrific shot inside mine.
I'm again, surprised and impressed.
Ran's swing, contact and the flight of the ball are all impressive.
He asks me, smiling, if I want to try his hickories.  I decline, but, I am impressed

We make the turn and at the halfway point we're asked how our match stands.
Not wanting to get into detailing three matches and the differences in standing, we say, all even, and we're probably pretty close to that.

As the match flows from the 1st tee, we're also discussing the golf course, certain features and how best to play them.

We notice how differently the 5th hole plays from the back versus the regular tee.
It's not so much the difference in yardage as it is the flight of the ball and the slope of the terrain in the DZ

All three matches are very close, but, my birdie on 16 ends the 11 shot match, I won the 10 shot match earlier, so now, only the 12 shot match hangs in the balance, and, I'm one DOWN, with two to play.

On # 17, a wonderful par 3 where missing the green is a fatal mistake, I hit a good iron about 20 feet behind the hole which is favoring the front of the green.  Ran hits a good shot, but, it's about 35-40 feet from the hole, on the SAME line as my ball.
As we arrive at the green, I'm thinking, he could easily three putt this, making the match all even  with just one hole to go, the difficult 18th.  I like my chances if I can just win # 17

Ran takes an inordinate amount of time lining up his putt, which I like.
He addresses his ball, and makes his stroke.
Three feet off the putter blade I know that I've won this hole.
Ran has hit his putt very hard and well to the left of the proper line.
I am delighted.
He screams, oh no, slow down.
As his ball goes speeding past my marker, I immediately get behind it to watch his ball, which will probably end up 15 feet left and past the hole.

Now, the worst possible thing that could happen, happens.
About 10 feet from the hole, His ball hits a pebble, not just any pebble, but, a small rock, which not only deflects his ball to the right, but, slows it down quite a bit.
Horribly, his ball hits the back of the cup, still at speed, jumps up, and goes into the hole
All I can think is, are you f'in kidding me ?
Ran is ecstatic, jumping and flitting across the green, now claiming that he hit the perfect putt at the perfect time.
If anyone thinks that anyone can do a better impression of "Tinker Bell" on steroids than Ran, they're mistaken.
The man is euphoric, telling everyone within earshot what a perfect putt he hit.
I still can't believe it, I saw that stone, but never gave it any thought in terms of influencing play because if was so far out of our line.
Now, I get over my putt, steel myself and say, just knock this in and you'll go to extra holes with "Tinker Bell".

I hit my putt and it looks perfect from the moment it leaves my putter.
It's on the line I read, at a good pace and breaking slightly left to right into the hole.
I take a quick look at Ran and a look of horror has come over his face.
I glance back, to see my ball, it's slowing down and breaking into the hole when suddenly, it stops breaking, catches a good deal of the hole and spins out.  I can't believe it, I thought I had hit the perfect putt, especially given the circumstances.
Ran is still airborne, having leaped as high as he's physically capable of, and shouting with glee.

This is definitely one of my most bitter defeats since I've been playing golf.
The other two matches I won are of no consequence, I wanted to win all three, and I was so close to winning this one as well.

Fate, in the form of a small rock, would bring about a terrible reversal of fortune, and make Ran's golfing year, if not decade.

As someone once said, "What a revolting development this turned out to be"

I congratulate Ran on his win, pick up the stone, and ask him if he wants to have it "bronzed"

I am really, really, really pissed.
I had him, he was choking, he hit that putt a thousand miles an hour and pulled it, he would have three putted and we'd have gone to the 18th tee all even, that's like putting a good meal in front of me after I haven't eaten in a week.

While Ran was incredibly lucky on # 17, his play for the day was outstanding.
As we head to # 18 tee, Ran needs a par to break 80 and shoot 79.  A birdie gives him 78.
With a par on 18 I'll be in the 60's

Ran pulls his tee shot into the large left bunker and bogies the hole.
I drive to the right center of the fairway, hit my approach on the green and make par, certainly a good score on the hole and for the day, but, I'm totally unsatisfied with the results, especially that putt of his on # 17.  That putt had to be one of the worst putts under pressure that I've ever seen.

All through out the day and for the rest of the trip, Ran is telling everyone who will listen how he used that rock as a backboard to bank his putt into the hole.  Of course he fails to tell them that the putt could have made it to North Dakota at the speed it was traveling.

To this day, I'm still annoyed at that putt, rock and result.

And, you can bet, that I now remove any pebble, stone, rock anywhere remotely near my opponents line.

Time for lunch, but, I'll continue with the final part of our journey shortly


A round in the 60s at Sand Hills?  You must be quite a player Mr. Mucci.

I did notice that it took only one sentence for you to get a barb in regarding the prevailing winds at Sand Hills.  Gene will be chiming in soon  ;)
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2009, 05:12:58 PM »
Scott,

The round of the day belonged to Ran, he played incredibly well, far beyond his ability.

To shoot a score of 80, bogeying the last hole, in a competitive match, against me and the lip iron, with a complete set of hickories is quite an accomplishment, probably the highlight of his golfing career.

I thought he played better with the hickories than he did with his regular clubs.

Some wondered if the hickories were a sham, and that the clubs were really graphite made to look like hickory.

Irrespective of the horrible and undeserving outcome, Ran played spectacular and deserved at least a half. ;D

 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2009, 04:49:59 AM »
I shall answer part of this....

A very large part of the USGA course rating process is "prevailing wind", at such places that have such of course.  And the stronger it is, the more it effects the yardages we use, which of course effects the rating.  One certainly could do the rating there (and anywhere) as if NO WIND EVER HAPPENED, but at a place like Sand Hills, Pat's weekend notwithstanding, that is a rare occurrence.

So yes, they could arrive at a course rating (and thus slope also) based on NO WIND.. but it would be quite wildly off from the reality.

Thus I completely understand why they'd choose not to have one at all.  No matter what Pat's data might indicate, the members (and management) believe that there is no one prevailing wind, and it does blow quite hard most of the time, from different directions very often.  So they choose to have no rating at all rather than an inaccurate one.

As for hole indexes, those are done by clubs, not USGA/local asssociations; they are two completely different things.  Advice can be given by the local association, but it's the CLUB that sets those.  So Sand Hills could set those out any time they want.  I believe they choose not to have those FIXED because again, the holes change so much on  the direction of the wind, it's not worth it to do... the system works quite well as Gene sets out... the members know based on the wind how the course is going to play, so they index the holes themselves for that round, or partial round, as Gene states.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this, it works well there.

TH

Tom

How much is a "very large part"?  From my experience, wind can only make up a small percentage of difficulty.  I am guessing there is some sort of process used to determine the difficulty.  What is it? 

Just so we understand each other, I don't care what Sand Hills does.  I am only curious as their stance seems to be very, very rare. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2009, 09:29:16 AM »
Sean,

The back of the Sand Hills score card makes this statement:

"Due to varying wind conditions and direction, handicap rating is intentionally omitted."

Scott,

I'll conitinue with the final episode in a day or two.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2009, 09:39:49 AM »
Thanks Patrick, I look forward to it.

Too bad we can't get TEPaul or Ran to chime in and offer some additional insight.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tom Huckaby

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2009, 11:01:36 PM »
Pat:

Love the story (however, let's remember Ran "destroyed" me NET.  Yes I lost that bet on the first tee; but I also found it a fun challenge, as quixotic net bets sometimes are.  Gross score, we know who won).  As for the rest, I have no desire to argue with you.  Why you want to parse these words is beyond me.  I was just trying to explain to Sean how the rating process works and in that context why Sand Hills might not want to have a course rating, as I see it.

Sean:   In course rating, if a prevailing wind can be determined, we use it - we adjust distances; just as you would if you play.  Into the wind means a ball goes shorter; with the wind farther.  That's it.  The process use to determine the "difficulty" is outlined in usga.org under course rating.  If you are interested, check it out.  In any case yes, it is rare to NOT want a course rating.

TH


Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2009, 11:15:04 PM »
Ran remains on cloud nine for the remainder of our visit.

We conclude a great trip, having been the guest of a most gracious host.  We enjoyed great weather, great accomodations, great food, great drink, great golf, but, most importantly, great company and great comraderie.  We've all had a fabulous time.

We depart Sand Hills and drive south toward North Platte to catch our connecting flight to Denver.

On the ride to North Platte, we relive our trip.
In addition, we now see even more phantom holes and golf courses on both sides of the highway.
The natural blow outs reminding us of many of the bunkers at Sand Hills.

Ran remains in a state of euphoria for the entire ride.

We arrive at the North Platte airport and I notice a B-17 bomber on the tarmac.
When we get inside the terminal, we find out that they're offering 1/2 hour rides on that B-17 for $

I wanted to fly in that B-17.

My uncle was a belly gunner in a B-17, and flew a good number of missions out of the air base in Foggia, Italy, before he was shot down and captured.  He spent the rest of the war in a prisoner of war camp.

As I looked at the B-17 sitting on the tarmac, the thing that impressed me was that it looked "overbuilt" rather cumbersome, but sturdy.

If I recall correctly it was silver with yellow markings on the tail.

We've arrived at the North Platte airport with ample time to make our flight, but, I'm not sure that if I take a ride in that bomber that I'll be able to make my plane to Denver, and I think, this is the last flight to Denver that day.

I strike up a conversation with some people with the TSA.
We talk about the bomber, it's history and how neat it would be to take a ride in it.
The "puddle jumper" between North Platte and Denver probably flies faster and is probably just as cramped for quarters, but, I really want to fly in that bomber.  I inquire about signing up and the timing of the ride.  I'm deeply disappointed to learn that I won't make the flight to Denver if I fly in the B-17.  I elect to pass on seeing what my uncle experienced.

I now turn my attention to getting ready to board our flight to Denver.

We're in the security line.  TEPaul is in front of me.  Not surprisingly, he can't find his ticket and/or his ID.
Everybody is asking, what's the holdup ? And calling, c'mon, let's go !
TEPaul is fumbling around in his bag and he asks me to go ahead of him in line so that he can have more time to find what he needs.
So, I go ahead of him.  Bad move.

It turns out that the TSA agents are conducting thorough searches of every THIRD passengers and their bags.
By leapfrogging TEPaul, I become a "third" passenger and am asked to open all of my carry on luggage.
In my luggage is a shaving kit.
In my shaving kit is a box of matches from Augusta that I took as a souvenir when I played there in 1999.  
I don't smoke, but, the hard cover matchbox is really neat, so I took it as a souvenir.
Matches are considered contraband.
I hadn't used this particular shaving kit since that time.  
In addition to the matches, there's a Swiss Army knife and another all purpose knife.
Knives of any type are considered contraband.
Needless to say, I"m asked to step out of line.  

I now wish I had flown in that B-17 with TEPaul, so that I could have opened the bomb bay doors and dropped him out from 8,000 feet, over his beloved Constellation routing at Sand Hills.
I'm questioned in great detail about the contents of my shaving kit.
I explain that I haven't used the kit in about 6 years.  That I don't smoke and never thought about the contents of the shaving kit in the context of prohibited items.
Some of the TSA people are the same ones that were discussing the B-17 with me.

The items are confiscated and I now spend a good deal of time filling out paperwork, thinking, that I'll be put on some special list, including a "no fly" list.
As I'm going through this ordeal, I'm thinking, "I wonder if the commuter plane to Denver has doors that I can open during flight so that I can throw TEPaul out of the plane.  Who knows, maybe he'll land on Ballyneal.
I complete all that's required of me and with a sigh of relief, am allowed to board the plane to Denver.

I ask TEPaul if this is the first time he's been allowed out of Pennsylvania.
The humor and irony is lost on him.
We land in Denver.
I buy the Sunday New York Times prior to getting on our connecting flight home.
In the NYT's there's a huge article describing the FINES levied against passengers with confiscated contraband.
Fines as much as $ 10,000 per incident, and I've had three (3).   The article goes on to say that the fines are sent in the mail and are typically received between one and three weeks after the incident.

I'm now wondering if the Continental Jumbo Jet has doors that I can open to throw TEPaul out of the plane somewhere between Denver and Newark..

The article goes on to say that the fine/s is/are established locally, by the airport of incident and that the determination of the amount of the fine is determined locally, in large part by the demeanor of the passenger, the items confiscated, the explanation, etc., etc..
I'm hoping that the people at NPA were kindly disposed to my situation, but, I can't help but think that shortly after getting home,  I'm going to receive a rather unpleasant delivery from the Post Office, an unhappy reminder of my wonderful trip to Sand Hills with TEPaul.

We board the Continental Jet to Newark without incident.

TEPaul is wearing a cap with the Sand Hills logo on it.
If you go back and look at the photo of TEPaul sitting in the back of that white pickup truck, you might have noticed that he bears a striking resemblance to Bill Coore and/or Ben Crenshaw.

I am unsuccessful in getting TEPaul upgraded to First Class.
He's sitting in Seat 17C.

My luck now turns a little for the better.
The flight attendant taking care of me is drop dead gorgeous, with a figure to match.
She's the most attractive flight attendant that I've seen in over a decade.
She's got a beautiful smile, a terrific personality and is pretty sharp.
I engage her in conversation and discover that she's a dog lover, as am I.
We talk about dogs and other subjects for about an hour.

Thoughts of bomb bay doors are creeping back into my head.

I ask her if she's seen "Rain Man"
She says she has.
I relate just some of my TEPaul experiences to her.
We laugh a good deal, she is terrific, gorgeous, personable with a sense of humor, and just a terrific woman.

I tell her that my "friend" is sitting in seat 17 C.
I tell her all about the fact that TEPaul idolizes C&C.
We hatch a plot.

Here's what happens

She casually walks down the aisle toward the back of the plane
As she approaches 17 C, she makes eye contact with TEPaul.
TEPaul sees her and is stunned by her looks.  I mean, she's really gorgeous, with an incredible smile.
He smiles at her, she smiles back, she walks by him, then backs up and says, excuse me, but, are you Ben Crenshaw, the famous golfer ?
TEPaul has now kicked Ran off cloud nine, and has taken Ran's place, he's higher than a kite, he's puffed up like the Goodyear Blimp.
She says, "you know I just love golf and you're my favorite golfer"
TEPaul is now in seventh heaven and is stammering for words.
And, I'm watching every bit of this..
She says, "I thought I recognized you when you boarded, but, I wanted to get everyone settled before I came over to ask you what you're doing when we land"
If you thought TEPaul was excited about the Constellation routing, you should have seen him then.
He says, "you know, a lot of people mistake me for Ben Crenshaw, but, I'm not.
Not missing a beat, she says, "then you must be Bill Coore, his partner, you two look so much alike and I just love golf course architects and golf course architecture.
TEPaul is straining at his seat belt and levitating out of his seat.
You have no idea how enraptured he is by this beauty, who's intriquingly interested in him and golf course architecture.
He says, well I know Ben and Bill is a good friend of mine, as a matter of fact .... blah, blah, blah.... he proceeds to try to tell her his life story in golf, all about Androssan Farms, Sand Hills, etc., etc..

She then says, "listen, I'd love to sit and talk to you, but, I really don't know anything about golf, I'm just hear because your friend in seat XYZ told me to come back and play a joke on you.

In a nano-second, TEPaul has now been dropped out of the bomb bay door at 35, 000 feet
TEPaul has gone from the thrill of victory to the agony of defeat.

The man is crest fallen, depressed, embarrased, mortified, red faced and disappointed.
I'm ecstatic, I'm smiling.  In fact, I'm laughing.
While I'll be apprehensive every time the mail is dropped off, at least I'll have the memory of TEPaul being shot down like the Red Baron at the hands of Snoopy.

The flight attendant returns and gives me the report on her fishing expedition describing how TEPaul took, hook, line and sinker

It was a wonderful way to end a terrific trip



Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2009, 12:24:08 PM »
Simply awesome. Thanks Pat.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2009, 02:57:36 PM »
Brilliant Patrick.

Purely brilliant.

Maybe the best post ever on GCA.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2009, 04:54:13 PM »
Thanks Pat, loved every minute of it.

Too bad TEPaul isn't around anymore to add some colorful commentary to the stories  :D
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2009, 02:34:23 PM »
Thanks Pat, a very entertaining read ;D
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #111 on: December 29, 2009, 10:47:10 PM »
Fellas,

Don't thank me, thank Gene Greco, Ran and TEPaul for allowing this to happen.

I just chronicled the events as I saw them

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #112 on: February 10, 2010, 01:26:11 PM »
Bump

Now that TEPaul is on board again, maybe he'd like to add his two cents  :D
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #113 on: February 10, 2010, 02:58:18 PM »
Deal 14, 15, 16 (homer!)
NSW 5, 6, 7
Sandwich 3, 4, 5 for the pros (4th is a par 5 for them)
Druids Glen 16, 17, 18



One vote for NSW 6,7,8 instead of 5,6,7.

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