Should Greenside bunkers

[JESII]

Fair enough Ralph, but how about your first post...do you really think a bunker only slightly below grade is crap?

[Adam Clayman]

I would think quality built bunkers would be site and conditionally specific.    

What direction the bunker is exposed to the biggest winds. Whether it's level, above or below the surface of the green, along with it's justification for being, implies a variety that is only formulaic when it's done properly throughout the golf course. Implying an intelligent varied design because every note is perfect. Nothing worse than predictable and repetitive placement throughout a round, or, I suppose, an architects career.



 

[RSLivingston_III]

I would think quality built bunkers would be site and conditionally specific.    

What direction the bunker is exposed to the biggest winds. Whether it's level, above or below the surface of the green, along with it's justification for being, implies a variety that is only formulaic when it's done properly throughout the golf course. Implying an intelligent varied design because every note is perfect. Nothing worse than predictable and repetitive placement throughout a round, or, I suppose, an architects career.

Pretty much. I like a challenge. (But I do realize that all the green bunkers can't be like that)
I don't like that people won't practice the shortcomings of their game anymore.

[Mike McGuire]

I would think quality built bunkers would be site and conditionally specific.    

 ........ Whether it's level, above or below the surface of the green, .....

I think the great bunkers are deep and ones barely below the green surface rarely look good.

Adam - Can you cite examples of good greenside bunkers that are above the green surface?

[Adam Clayman]

13th and 16th @ CPC came to mind. While not the entire bunker is above the reason for having some separation is to minimize the green bcoming covered after big winds. The 3rd at Ballyneal is another example. Tom's work there is the epitome of variety with some bunkers well within the green's depth and adjacent. Too many holes to recount. Look on Ran's review and you should see a few. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

IMO If while standing in a greenside bunker you can see the putting surface, that bunker is crap.

Ralph,

How would you craft bunkers in areas with high water tables, like South Florida where the water table can be very close to the surface ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Great question. Seems that most prefer bunkers cut as close to the green as possible,(so do I) but guess what? That style favors low handicappers, IMO, because most single digit handicaps feel like they can get short bunker shots up an down an acceptable % of the time...I am  3.5 index and a good bunker player. I'll take the consistancy of a bunker lies over the "randomness" of thick greenside rough any day. But if I hit it bad enough to be in a bunker 10-30 yards off the green, my % of up and downs will drop dramatically. I would much prefer a lob wedge from rough at that distance.

Bill, that configuration you mention ONLY favors low handicap golfers if the green or targeted areas is/are SMALL

[Sean_A]

I think folks are being far too limiting about the scope of green-side bunkers.  For the ones off-set 10-20 yards think of the approach areas short of greens, which on the best maintained courses are for all intents and purposes except for cutting a hole, part of the green.  These areas are crucial to the strategy of play and need features to enhance variety and challenge.  Otherwise, its a free-for-all in accessing front pin locations from the ground unless we are willing to have one type hazard doing the job 100% of the time.  Sounds kinda boring to me.  Below is an example.  If those bunkers short left and right aren't protecting the green, what are they protecting?


Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does the amount of offset, if any, depend in part upon the degree of wind that sweeps the site and the general firmness of the ground ?

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

yes and no. If the ground is soft then it is fairly unimportant if the bunkers are set in the middle, 20, 30, 40 yards either side or don't even exist at all because you are going to fly the ball back to the pin over any hazards in front anyway. If there is a cross wind then a player can use it to hold the ball up against in order to stop the ball if his natural shape or shot shaping skills are the right ones or if not but the ground is firm then play a low chaser under the wind. In the case of the later the bunker placement is of relevance.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
Good question.  I think many of the bunkers we see set back now were either designed as such or have evolved due to maintnenance and how a supt mows around the green.....BUT IMHO in some situations, a greenside bunker set back 10-15 feet from the edge with a swale between it and the green is much more difficult to score from than one on the edge.....when a bunker is on the edge it is a given for most players that the next shot will be a putt...however when the bunker is situated a few feet from the green and a swale or just grass is between it and the green surface a few more issues arise....for instance the example below is set back about 15 feet with a swale....since the sand wedge approach is slightly uphill, the deception of the area between the bunker and the green also adds to the shot value  IMHO