Does the awesome leaderboard vaildate the changes?

[Ran Morrissett]

Not since the final round of the Open at Royal St. George's do I recall such a star-studded leaderboard.

Is there any doubt that 99.99% of the world looks at this as complete validation of the recent changes?

Doesn't this make it a certainty that the 4th and 5th will go under the knife this summer?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The course as it is currently set-up favors length, it also so happens that we are currently in era when our top golfers are also very long. We have very few Trevino, Faldo, Azinger, Kite, Strange, Stewart, Pavin or Player types. How would they fair under these conditions? I have my doubts.

Maybe the changes were designed for the modern form of the game -- Jose-Maria proofing. Its unfortunate for Norman that these changes weren't made a decade ago.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran,

I think part of what you say is right on..

If tomorrow, the winner finishes, say -15, then Masters officials will almost certainly look at that as an affront to the difficulty of the course, and we'll not only likely see a brand new 4 & 5, but also plans for the moving of the 13th green by 50 yards, as well.  

[RJ_Daley]

I don't know Mike, that may be jumping the gun.  I think they have to see how it plays firmed up.  They said it was pretty tough on the drier day practice rounds.  Wouldn't you think the soft conditions has allowed them a good half dozen or more strokes under expected results of the current tinkering.  With it playing soft and long, that leaderboard is totally dominated by longish to real long hitters.  I think I'll start another thread... :-/

[A_Clay_Man]

If (as i hope) the number is too  low to justify the expenditure of surgery. Isn't it a validation for an about face in the overall strategy?,
 and,
Would getting rid of the rough, returning the "links style" Jones intended, be a better first step?

[John Foley]

After reading and discussng all the changes, I wasn't sure what to expect. After watching the tee shots on 10, 11 & 18 and seeing the shots they need to pull off a great approach, I have to admit the changes on those three holes have put a tremendous amount of challenge & strategy (although not so sure about how startegic 18 becomes). I love seeing 200+ into 11.

[ed_getka]

I agree with RJ, that until we see the course playing firm and fast I don't think this Masters proves anything. I have seen shots coming into some holes that would never be attempted under "normal" conditions.

The other thing I wonder about is how much of the "length" of todays players is partly a result of the different lofts of the pros clubs compared to us mere mortals. With 5 irons going up to 240 yds, can that just be better balls and increased fitness of the players?

Regardless of what effect the changes have had, today is going to be awesome.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

The conditions have changed the course to the point one cannot come to a conclusion on this issue now. I feel they should play 18 30 years shorter today to allow for the strategy on 18 with the tour possibly on the line. Next year we shall see.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Great courses SET UP FAIRLY yield great leaderboards...Without all this rain, we have literally no idea how this course would have been set up. Clearly, to be on this leaderboard you have to drive the ball at least 290, but there is no question, that this is one of the greatest leaderboards of all time....remember, though, that this is NOT the PGA championship, and the #115 on the money list guys are just not here...no bob may, no skip kendall.

We would all agree that Carnoustie is great but was set up poorly for the Open Championship that yielded us Paul Lawrie and Jean VdV. AAC was not a great course, and you get Steve Lowery and Shingo in 3rd and 4th...so, I guess there must be SOME validation here.

[Robert_Walker]

Goosen's average dirving distance is around 280 yards. He is not an overly long driver of the ball, but he is making the 10 foot putts. I am anxious to see how he fares hitting first into the greens, as Tiger will almost certainly be out-driving him all day long.

You also have to take note of Tiger's endurance. He birided 18, his 26th hole of the day. While Goosen made a workmanlike and safe bogey on 18, that tells me 2 things.
 
Also, did anyone notice that V Singh complained a lot about mud on his ball? ....to the point of wanting to lift, clean, and place?

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

They are not going to redo #4 and #5 anytime soon. Any such changes to those holes will be left to Hootie's successor. They are also not going to move 13 green back 50 yards, and reroute the creek.  

john_f,

It is refreshing to see someone allowing that some of the changes may just be working out. Good on you for being open minded.

Man, I love to see a tournament where the cream rises to the top. Isn't it a helluva leaderboard?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Gary Smith,

Are you sure that changes to the 4th, 5th, and 13th aren't forthcoming within Hootie's gameplan?  What is your source?

Why would they float those much-publicized "trial balloons" this year, then?  

As far as the changes, all I see is longer, straighter shots needed to the changed holes.  Some were necessary for the Masters, but I don't see where strategy has been enhanced in the slightest.  If anything, it seems to negate the possibility of daring play on those holes, such as 1 and 18, where no one is challenging the fairway bunkers.  

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Mike,

As far as moving #4, and thus extending #5, that was ruled out, in an emphatic way, by Hootie in his press conference. Is that an acceptable source? As for as the absurd idea, IMHO, floated around (not by you), of rerouting the creek, moving the 13 green back 50 yards, and everyone lives happily ever afterward as we go skipping down the path holding hands, the source is me.   (maybe not an acceptable source, eh?  )

Mike, on another thread, you made the observation that you feared the players leading the Masters were all going to become one-dimensional, and we would have no scramblers, swashbucklers, technicians, all-arounders, and on and on, leading in the Masters, in the future. I replied back and asked if Mickelson, Garcia, Goosen, and Woods, didn't fit these definitions, in order. (I may not have all names exactly right as they were on the other thread)

As far as I know, you didn't reply to my question. Care to, now?

[Tim_Weiman]

Ran:

It will be tragic if most people come away thinking Augusta National did the right thing, but, most likely, this is the conclusion people will reach.

Keep in mind that the Masters production is tightly controlled and there wil be no "equal time" to discuss the downside of the golf technology arms race.

Nobody at CBS will dare rasie the issue.  People like Ron Whitten at Golf Digest consider even discussing the topic "ranting".  Incredibly, USA Today was even worse than CBS or Golf Digest.  The paper suggested that any question about the changes to Augusta was limited to silly protests by Charles Barkley claiming "racism" as the club's motivation.

Augusta National sets a very poor example, but they have the clout to do it.  Golf industry leaders will go on making the game ever more expensive until more people begin to think clearly about how wasteful the golf technology arms race is.

[Geoff Shackelford]

Ran,
I have to agree with those who say the weather conditions make it almost impossible to evaluate fairly. But the all-star leaderboard does validate the notion that the list of potential winners has been narrowed down to about 12 players, which is not a good thing (weren't the best Masters the ones where those not so-long old guys made valiant comebacks???).

However, I think all of the discussion of the changes has done one great thing. There is a near consensus (excluding the folks in Far Hills who will always be in denial) that something should be done about the ball for so many different reasons. Palmer's statement was huge, and Nicklaus gave some of his most fasinating statements on the matter to date in this week's press conference. I think we are much closer to seeing a competition ball in golf, and it will be the easiest solution for the long term good of the game (especially architecture).
Geoff

[Mike_Cirba]

Gary,

I'm not sure that we haven't gotten off on the wrong foot.  I was simply asking your source, because I didn't hear anything to refute the well-publicized stories.  It almost sounds to me as though they are things Fazio would probably like to do (and is trying to convince ANGC that they can effectively pull off), but probably the club is resistant to digging the place up again soon.

However, if I said something that sounded like a personal affront, I apologize.  While we don't agree that the changes enhance the strategy of the course, I see no reason for either of us to become contentious about it.

As far as the players you mentioned, yes, they are all well-rounded players, but also extremely long drivers.  Even the shortest of the group, Goosen, is averaging 280 yard drives in wet conditions.  

But, what is becoming more evident to me is simply that golf technology is accelerating out of control, so if you want to use that as the basis for the changes, I'll tacitly agree.  I just watched Mickelson approach the newly-lengthened first hole from 125 UPHILL yards with a nine iron to a foot.  How long is that hole from tee to green now?  SHEESH!

So, longer yes.  Need for accuracy of driving more emphasized..yes.

However, I still don't see that strategy isn't reduced with the renewed emphasis on length and dictated shot placement.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Mike,

There are no problem with you, and if I became a little contentious on the sources reply, my apology.

I don't see the idea of changes to the 4th, 5th, and 13 as trial balloons floated by ANGC. In my opinion, which could be wrong, those guys don't feel the need to float trial balloons. I'm thinking the future changes ideas originated with a GD golf magazine article, and not from ANGC people. But who knows, I don't know all these inside relationships among writers, clubs, and archies. I think moving the 13th green would be going way too far. If they ever were ever serious about that, why not keep it where it is and call it a par 4?

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Mike,

A clarification. Nantz just said on the telecast that #5 would have some changes next year in some lengthening, and fairway bunker moved or enlarged. Johnson did make mention of that in his press conference.

What Hootie emphatically denied in the press conference was the notion put forth in the magazine aticle of completely doing away with the 4th hole, recreating it further to the right, and than dramatically lengthening #5 from the old 4th green location.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

[Paul Richards]

This leaderboard is indeed amazing.

Yes, Ran, I do believe it does validate the recent changes.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm must have dozed off. I now see Tiger has a commanding lead, did I miss any thing exciting?

Thankfully everyone knows the tournament begins on the backside on Sunday. I can't wait for the birdies, the bogies, the eagles, its always a wild ride. Fasten your seat belts! What's with these anouncers, did someone die?

Paul Richards
I haven't seen anything this exciting since the last time the Western was held at one of your all-time favorites, Butler National. Was Hootie involved with that course too?

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Tom MacWood,

I knew a post like yours was coming.

Is it just a little bit possible that today's sleepwalk has much more to do with the mental hold Woods has on his rivals than with the course changes?

Just a little possible?

[Pete Lavallee]

Besides changing the length of the holes perhaps they'll have to change the slogan too. Now, "the Masters is over by the back nine on Sunday". None of those nasty wedges into par 4's, no birdies either. No mid irons were played into the par 5's, put the eagle on the endangered species list in Georgia. In short no drama on Sunday's back nine. But it was a great test of driving though, its' real hard to mount a charge from the pine straw. Perhaps MacKenzies vision of wide fairways, no rough and holes which played on the verge of par was what produced the excitement we were used to. Hootie and Fazio's version seems like a slog.

[Bill_McBride]

The hole where I felt the changes were most inappropriate is the 7th.  This was always meant to be a long iron or fairway wood lay up and sand wedge to an extremely demanding green.  With the tee back 60 yards, the players have to hit a driver or they'll be laying up and hitting 5 or 6 irons to that tough green.  That's why they were chipping out of the trees and playing other crazy shots into that green.  Very disappointing.

[David Kelly]

I think I have seen this year's final round before but I am trying to figure out which U.S. Open it was.

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

Which Western was that at Butler?

How about the 1963 Western at Beverly?  Arnold Palmer
beats Jack Nicklaus and Julius Boros in an 18-hole Monday
playoff.  The three are the defending Major champions and
one-two-three on the money list as well!!