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Chip Gaskins

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Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« on: December 11, 2009, 10:22:30 AM »
I saw this in the Ocean Course clubhouse last weekend, pretty cool.



I had forgotten how good the Ocean Course really is...



Ed Oden

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 10:55:44 AM »
Did Scott Miller clone himself?

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 10:57:06 AM »
Whoever put that family tree together forgot Rod Whitman  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 11:15:29 AM »
I think that Pete Dye's Hall-of-Fame credentials (Inducted November 2008) is partially based on the tremendous architectural legacy he's left behind, as illustrated on this "Family Tree."  It's mostly due to his innovative design work, and the fact that a half-dozen of his creations are household names.  But it also stems in some significant part to the people he and Alice have mentored along the way.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 11:21:44 AM »
I agree, Joel.

Seems to me that Pete and Alice were able to mentor so many because of the design/build methodology they employed; which is an important point, I think.
jeffmingay.com

TEPaul

Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 11:27:04 AM »
"It's mostly due to his innovative design work,"


Joel:

I sure do agree with you about that. When one says Pete (Alice) Dye was innovative, that word and remark and thought should probably be expanded to include a far more complete explanation of what their innovation entailed and to what extent it was significant and prominent and perhaps fairly unique in the entire history and evolution of golf architecture.

I look at Pete and Alice and their architecture as part of the so-called "Modern Era" but within that era they created very much their own unique "Thing" or "Niche" or sub-category, in my book.

I think their family tree posted above is most interesting but what interests me even more is the family tree that essentially created Pete and Alice Dye and their own special type and style of architecture and GCA philosophy.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 11:29:50 AM »

Cynthia Dye should probably be on there somewhere.

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 11:41:02 AM »

Cynthia Dye should probably be on there somewhere.

Absolutely---I once was pole-axed by her Seattle-area design. White Horse GC, and she certainly learned the Dye-Way of brute force and intimidation!  For that matter, her brother Andy (Laguna National in Singapore, among other Far East creations) and late brother Matt (Sleepy Ridge south of SLC, another GC whose name escapes me is Southern Utah) should also be included.[


quote author=Jeff_Mingay link=topic=42502.msg910349#msg910349 date=1260548504]
I agree, Joel.

Seems to me that Pete and Alice were able to mentor so many because of the design/build methodology they employed; which is an important point, I think.
[/quote]

Jeff--what exactly do you mean?  The fact that they were so often on-site, and able to teach-by-example during the day-to-day course of the project?

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 01:41:41 PM »
From the 17 Jun 2002 issue of SI's Golf Plus:

The Alice & Pete Dye tree (note the 2002 date if any more modern people are missing):

Jack Nicklaus (1940- )
   Chris Cochran (1960- )
   David Heatwole (1961- )
   Bob Cupp (1939- )
      John Fought (1954- )
   Jack Nicklaus II (1961- )
   Tom Pearson (1949- )
   Jim Lipe (1946- )
   Rick Jacobson (1958- )
   Scott Miller (1956- )
Rod Whitman (1953 - )
Bobby Weed (1955- )
   Chris Gray (NA)
   Scot Sherman (1966- )
   Chris Monti (1974- )
Lee Schmidt (1947- )
John Harbottle (1958- )
Bill Coore (1945- )
   Dan Proctor (1952- )
   David Axland (1961- )
   Ben Crenshaw (1952- )
Tim Liddy (1953- )
Greg Norman (1955- )
David Pfaff (1939- )
Tom Doak (1961- )
   Bruce Hepner (NA)
   Gil Hanse (NA)
   Tom Meade (NA)
Roy Dye (1929-1994)
Perry Dye (1952- )
P.B. Dye (1955- )
Brian Curley (1959- )
William Newcomb (1940- )
   John Robinson (1947- )
   Stephen Kay (1951- )
Scott Pool (NA)
Jason McCoy (NA)

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 02:00:42 PM »
Joel,

Most golf architects, who hand over plans to a contractor, don't need much help. Maybe 1-3 people doing drafting and computer work (depending how busy they are, of course). By comparison, Mr. and Mrs. Dye were constantly assembling constuction crews. Their design/build method permitted them to put young guys like Rod Whitman, Bobby Weed, Tom Doak, Ron Farris and so many others to work in the dirt. (As you know, there's a famous story about how many guys who are now golf course designers in their own right worked at Long Cove simultaneously.)

So, again, the Dye's methodology allowed them to mentor more people than other golf architects ever could. Which is great!
jeffmingay.com

BCrosby

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 02:16:32 PM »
Scott - Thanks. Interesting.

What tree did Pete and Alice branch from? For all the talk over the years about the Dyes' influence, I've never known much about where they got their chops.

Bob





 

 

Ron Farris

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2009, 02:35:02 PM »
I have worked with Pete, Bobby Weed, P.B., Cynthia, John Harbottle, Scott Pool, as well as Rod Whitman.
I settled in obscure golfing mecca, South Dakota, but I have actually designed courses.
I have never been overly self promotive, but I would like to think I fell from the tree.
If not, I want Pete to personally apologize for referring to me as a "dumb ass", because I felt those were learning moments ;D

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2009, 03:19:54 PM »
Scott - Thanks. Interesting.

What tree did Pete and Alice branch from? For all the talk over the years about the Dyes' influence, I've never known much about where they got their chops.

Bob


This might not be the gospel truth, but it's as close as I can come to the answer to your question.  Maybe some of the architects who have worked more closely with Pete can shed further light.

When he was just getting started in golf course design in the mid-50s, Pete looked for advice from Indianapolis native Bill Diddel, who had designed numerous courses in the state. He admired the straightforward, some might suggest simplistic technique that Diddel employed.  The older man eschewed fancy irrigation systems and flashy bunkering, and created his courses as naturally as possible.  Pete saw him as a mentor, and told him he hoped to design courses in the same no-frills way.  Diddel, with an eye toward the future, was blunt in his reply.  “If you try and do it like I did, you’ll starve.”
   Though he’s slender as a flagstick, it’s safe to say Pete never missed a meal, other than those he skipped during the untold eighteen-hour workdays he put in over the decades. 

When 38-year old Pete Dye qualified for the 1963 British Amateur, he and Alice seized the opportunity to visit the great courses of Scotland.  He regretted his impetuous disparagement of the Old Course at St Andrews after a single round as a “goat ranch.” Seven rounds later, thanks to his strong showing in the event, he realized it was one of the world’s great tracks.  The Dyes used this inaugural overseas jaunt to study and play more than 30 Scottish classics.  This seminal visit helped clarify and articulate their vision of vibrantly memorable golf course designs. 
They were particularly impressed by the Old Course, Turnberry, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Royal Dornoch, Muirfield, Troon, Nairn, Gullane, Western Gailes, and North Berwick.  They came back to the Midwest eager to build courses with small greens and wide, undulating fairways.  They wanted to incorporate pot bunkers, railroad ties, and blind holes into their work, experiment with contrasting grass mixes, and add gorse like vegetation to frame fairways.
It’s probably no coincidence that Pete Dye’s inaugural masterpiece, Crooked Stick in Carmel, Indiana, was the first course he designed after his initial foray to the British Isles.  Up to that point, Dye had produced ten courses and made revisions on a dozen others.  But Crooked Stick, which the Dye’s refer to as their “firstborn,” truly put Pete on the map. 

TEPaul

Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 06:13:36 PM »
You know Joel, I've got to hit the books (like yours) and fill myself in a bit more about Pete and Alice Dyes' live and times. From way back in Delray years ago I seem to remember that both of them were also award winning insurance salespeople. When was that or am I going crazy?

Mike_Young

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 07:36:16 PM »
What I always find interesting about the so called "family trees" of golf architecture is ..how long did a person stay there.....in a normal family tree a child is nurtured (hopefully) matures , marries and adds to the family tree...carrying family traits with him....(sort of like Tiger w Earls traits ;D)  ..you see so many guys out there that will tell you they worked for Pete Dye or another and you find out it was for two weeks or a month.....I know I worked on a the richmond hill project for two weeks one summer when PB was building it in the early 1980's just to see what went on.....got to run a track hoe, trench some irrigation got to watch Percy, shine a lite on gators and shoot them between the eyes as they were in the banks of the canal...jump in a drag them out and cook the tails....but I would not say ever worked for Pete Dye....so how long does one stay some place to be on the "Tree".....
In simpler terms...I call BS on some of this tree stuff with architectural trees....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JC Urbina

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2009, 12:31:03 AM »
Mike,

I understand your point about resume building but how long would you need to work with Pete Dye before you could be a part of the tree?


Mike_Young

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2009, 12:45:59 AM »
Mike,

I understand your point about resume building but how long would you need to work with Pete Dye before you could be a part of the tree?



Jim,
I don't know.....I would think a guy like Jason McCoy would be a good solid branch on the tree....
Since I never worked for any architect but sort of watched a few from the sidelines while selling to their projects....I have always been intrigued by the "tree" stuff....IMHO a good sturdy tree would be where the branches had all been involved enough with the main architect to have directed or managed a project of his.....otherwise we have guys floating around out there that have been in the office doing drafting....rarely on a site saying they are part of the tree.....
The same thing happens with teaching pros and club pros....some guy comes in to teach and says he worked for Leadbetter or Harmon....when in actuality he was at one of their academies and maybe met them once....he set up the launch monitor and maybe changed the loft on a few clubs and now some unknown dude is getting lessons from some guy that has minimal knowledge of the swing....
Lastly..none of this is meant to slam legitimate tree limbs.....
Cheers
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2009, 02:48:20 AM »
Where does Kevin Bacon fit in?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

BCrosby

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2009, 09:59:35 AM »
Joel -

Thanks. To a remarkable degree Dye seemed to be self-taught. In the sense that he didn't apprentice with anyone nor even have an acknowledged mentor.

At what point did Dye leave the insurance business and become a full time architect? I ask because I wonder if the fact that he had other sources of income helps to account for the audacity of his designs? It's always nice to have f---k you money. Thoughts?

A question I wish someone would ask Dye - At the time of your first tour of the great Scottish courses, what was it about US courses that you thought was unsatisfactory? Put differently, what was it about the Scottish courses that you thought most important to import into courses in the US?

Bob       

Mike_Young

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2009, 10:07:23 AM »
Bob,
IMHO if he had not been self taught we may never have heard from him.....working under someone would have stifled or shot down much of what he built....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2009, 10:59:55 AM »
Mike -

Agreed. It's also why, I suspect, he made his Scottish pilgrimage. He was looking for fresh design ideas. I would love to hear, however, what Dye himself says about that formative time in his career.

It's not as if there weren't lots and lots of good design ideas in US courses at the time. If he was unhappy with the stuff RTJ was building, he might have done a tour of Myopia, NGLA, Cypress, Augusta, PII and so forth. But he didn't. He did a very different tour of Scottish courses that were not very well known at the time. (At least not in the US, St Andrews excepted.)

Bob

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2009, 11:15:07 AM »
Here's a little more light on the subject, also culled from the introduction to my book on Pete and his courses.  From what I've gleaned from family members, without asking too many questions, Alice's family, the O'Neals, were quite well-to-do, probably from the insurance business, which both Pete and Alice eventually entered. 

The interesting thing is that the Dyes themselves were in the insurance business also, in Pete's hometown of Urbana, Ohio.  (Alice is from Indy, where they settled)  In fact, the firm in Urbana still exists today, called Dye & Doss, and is run by Andy Doss, whose grandfather is Pink Dye--Pete's dad, and obviously also the grandfather of Pete's boys Perry and P.B.

Pete Dye met his future wife at Rollins College in 1946.  Alice O’Neal was a fine player then, and became a great player in the ensuing decades.  Her trophy case includes nine Indiana Women’s Amateur titles, eleven Indianapolis City Championships, the Women’s Eastern, the North and South, and a pair of USGA Senior Amateur Championships, among many other significant titles, both individual and team.  Though Alice became instrumental in her husband’s architectural career, Pete did not mind getting the lion’s share of the credit.  “Hell no,” he once told a reporter, only half-jokingly.  “I played second fiddle to Alice for so many years in Indianapolis, it’s finally my turn!”
It was 1955, five years into their marriage, when Pete first got entertained the idea of getting into golf course design.  Timing-wise, it was a curious decision.  From the early 1930s until the mid 1950s, course closures outnumbered openings by a ratio of three-to-one.  The stock market crash, the ensuing Depression, bank foreclosures, World War II, and the seizure of golf properties to make way for the burgeoning interstate highway system all contributed to the marked attrition of courses nationwide.   Pete was a successful insurance agent in Indianapolis at the time, having followed Alice into the field.  The Dyes had parlayed their local golf prominence into a thriving insurance business.   But despite his membership in the million-dollar roundtable, it was his membership at the Country Club of Indianapolis that veered him into an entirely different direction.

Pete began using the club grounds as a living laboratory.  There were serious maintenance issues at the club, and as an enthusiastic greens committee chairman, he dove into the job full force. He transplanted saplings after disease killed off the elm trees.  He tinkered with bunkers and added curvature to fairway mowing patterns.  His interest piqued, he started commuting to classes at the Purdue University School of Agronomy, where he learned about grasses, turf, pesticides, and fungicides.  A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.  Pete managed to kill what little grass there was on some of his club’s fairways.  He built a “lifetime” bridge that collapsed in the first spring rain.  To his surprise, he was never kicked out of the club, or even removed as head of the committee, and with the encouragement of his wife, he remained undaunted as he attempted to forge a new career.
El Dorado in Indianapolis was Pete and Alice’s first official design, which was a real mom-and-pop shop.  They had to hand-mix the soil, sand, and peat mixture for the USGA-specified greens in a local barn.   They grew bent grass in their yard, bought a sod-cutter, and transported sections to the course in the trunk of their Oldsmobile. The nine-hole course, which is now known as Dye’s Walk, opened in 1961.   Pete’s penchant for making a golfer sweat was evident right from the beginning.  Richard Tufts, friend to the Dyes and a former USGA president, wrote them with some helpful advice.  “I certainly enjoyed looking at your routing, but don’t you think crossing the creek thirteen times in nine holes is a bit much?”   
The Dyes built their first 18-hole course a year later in Indianapolis.  It was named Heather Hills and eventually renamed Maple Creek.  More work followed, most of it on a local level. The architect wondered whether his amateur status as a golfer would be affected by his new profession, but it was a moot point.  As his design career flourished, the seven-days-a-week, in-the-trenches regimen made his brief foray into big-time amateur golf only a fond memory.

Derek_Duncan

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2009, 02:16:53 PM »
Mike -

Agreed. It's also why, I suspect, he made his Scottish pilgrimage. He was looking for fresh design ideas. I would love to hear, however, what Dye himself says about that formative time in his career.

It's not as if there weren't lots and lots of good design ideas in US courses at the time. If he was unhappy with the stuff RTJ was building, he might have done a tour of Myopia, NGLA, Cypress, Augusta, PII and so forth. But he didn't. He did a very different tour of Scottish courses that were not very well known at the time. (At least not in the US, St Andrews excepted.)

Bob

Bob,

The answer to many of the questions being posed in this thread can be found in Joel Zuckerman's book, which is really fantastic: great history and photography and really insightful, thoughtful write-ups on most of Dye's notable courses.

But to give one answer to your question, and to compliment the sage advice Diddel gave to Dye as Joel shares it in the book, Dye deliberately tried to create golf courses that cut against prevailing trends, primarily to set himself apart. It was about branding.

He's told me on two occasions (and I've heard it reported by many others) that he wanted to purposely distinguish himself from RTJ and Dick Wilson. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I think the fact that he began importing Scottish links ideas and looks is perhaps incidental: it's just where he happened to be at the time. Obviously he saw the light on the visit to Scotland, but he might very well have been playing Myopia, Cypres or NGLA during the period when he realized he needed his own calling card, and his early courses might have reflected more those characteristics.

FWIW, he's not shy about admitting he pilfered a lot of his ideas. One of his big early commissions was to build the second course at the University of Michigan. While there he got to know the MacKenzie course quite well. Later, when building Crooked Stick, the heavy contour of a trio of greens (I want to say 12-14 but I could be wrong) created quite a lot of chatter. Dye says he copied them exactly from three greens at the old UM course. But to paraphrase Woody Allen, if you're going to plagiarize, at least plagiarize from the best.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Mike_Young

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2009, 02:38:28 PM »
How many practicing architects that have courses on the ground with their names on them are not from a tree?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Pete Dye and his GCA family tree
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2009, 02:40:41 PM »
Mike -

Agreed. It's also why, I suspect, he made his Scottish pilgrimage. He was looking for fresh design ideas.

How can these ideas be considered "fresh" if they existed for decades prior to Pete's pilgrimage? ;)
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo