Best Course for Distinguishing the Scratch from the 5 HCP

[Evan_Green]

Which course do you think does the best job of differentiating the true scratch player from the 5 handicapper? And Why?

My vote is Olympic Lake. The true scratch player can still shoot 71-74, but a 5 handicapper is going to shoot 83 most of the time. Why? 2 main reasons in my opinion:

1.  No flat lies, and almost all lies being sidehill to some degree, make ball striking much more difficult. It really seperates the wheat from the chaffe in those that can still hit quality shots because even shots from the middle of the fairway arent simple. Its not easy to hit a 4 iron 4-6 inches below your feet to a hard green.

2. The small greens and penal green surrounds. If you hit the greens, you score fine. The ratio of greens hit by scratch players versus the 5 HCP on the Lake, I would bet is much higher than on most other courses. The greens are subtle, and its hard to make birdies, but because they're small, if youre hittting greens in regulation, you're not going to three putt all day. However, the margin for error is small and the bunkers/slopes/rough around the greens ensure you're not going to have any easy up and down if you miss. You can miss by 5 yards and be short sided in a bunker and you have a guaranteed bogey. The 5 who shoots 83 probably wont make any triples on this course because theres no water/minimal OB, but you'll be on the bogey/double train all day unless your long game is consistent.

Do you agree? Any other candidates??

[cary lichtenstein]

Spyglass Hill

[Jaeger Kovich]

Evan -  I think you hit on the real key in your 2nd point "If you hit the greens, you score fine. The ratio of greens hit by scratch players versus the 5 HCP on the Lake, I would bet is much higher than on most other courses."... which is why I think most courses with a par of 70 are especially good at this. Obviously there are plenty 72's out there that do the same, but I feel the two extra 2-shot holes make consistent ball striking even harder and there are fewer par 5's to take advantage of and make birdies. The more holes that require long iron approaches and tricky greens, the bigger the separation you will see.

My home course, Quaker Ridge is very good at separating scratch players from the 5 handicaps. With OB on the first 8 holes, one stray drive and you are already in trouble with limited birdies chances. Also with the first hole as a par-5, it is extra difficult to come charging out of the gate. Our green contours also don't make it any easier. Most scratch players can put mid-70 rounds together, but the 5 is happy just to break 80.

Other courses I would put on this list are:
Bethpage Black (71) and The Ocean Course (72) not because of length, but because of the premium on course management. You need to have total control of your game and know when to take a chance over the diagonal hazards/forced carries, and when to lay back. Also the weather can be of particular importance at these courses, placing a real premium on club selection. I expect most 5's to keep their ball out of the tall grass (BP) and water/waste areas (OC), but there is a difference between keeping it in play, and having it at the right angle for approach.

I would also give both WF courses a nod here because of the push-up greens and big green contours.

[Bill_McBride]

Interesting, both O-Club and Spyglass came to mind when I saw the thread title.,

Spyglass because it's just a son of a bitch in general.  Ollympic because only the best ball strikers who can work the ball can play well.  It was a pleasure to see how well Mike Benham played the course three years ago right about now.

I haven't played there but have always heard Winged Foot has a couple of very demanding courses for anybody but great ball strikers.

Isn't Pine Valley n a league of its own?

[Jason Topp]

Nicklaus' more difficult designs demand high solid iron shots with nasty consequences for failure to perform.  Desert Highlands and La Paloma are two examples that come to mind. 

[Steve Lang]

 
Specific Answer:  OAKTREE..  and many other Pete Dye Courses..

General Answer:  Most any course used for 2nd stage of PGA TOur School

[Ron Csigo]

Olympic Lake is a stern test.  There are zero flat lies out there unless you count the tee boxes.  I can't think of another course that I played where a straight drive can get you in so much trouble.  Working the ball both ways off the tee is paramount.  And when you do find the fairway, you might have to hit a cut shot from a hook lie.  Really easy to catch it fat.  Plus, factor in the ocean air which makes the course play even longer. 

[Bob_Huntley]

I would think that Carnoustie is the nearest thing to the test of the 5 handicap wannabe. Everything going well, until the 16th onward.


Bob

[Sean_A]

Most any proper championship course not set up for a championship, but still from tees quite a way back.

Ciao

[Kyle Henderson]

Oakmont?

[Rob Rigg]

I would +1 Bethpage Black (which I have played) and Oakmont (strictly on rep) - I know all 5 HCs are different - but I would imagine that a scratch golfer would kick my butt in a match on these courses because of 1) Driving Accuracy and subsequently 2) GIRs.

While I might be able to save a couple of strokes from scrambling and putting, it seems like these venues really punish transgressions from the tee and on the approach which make it very difficult to get up and down repeatedly?

Is TPC Sawgrass another contender? Pretty demanding from the tee based on observation from the gallery and a miss in the wrong place can be trouble, quickly.

[Alex Miller]

Oakmont?

I agree. The driving accuracy is one thing, but I'd say another part of the game that separates a Scratch from a 5 is putting/shortgame. Oakmont's greens are some of the toughest in the world

[Tony Petersen]

Desert Forest is another wheat from the chafe kinda of design... I think more penal desert golf has that tendency as well, though handicaps don't necessarily travel well to the Valley of the Sun... they really don't

[Bruce Wellmon]

Pinehurst #2

[Kalen Braley]

Idaho Club in Sandpoint.  A better player can at least handle it, but anything less than a consistent striker of the ball means a lot of big numbers.

[Matt_Ward]

Have to agree that in my neck of the woods --

Winged Foot / West

&

Bethpage / Black

They demand nothing less than total skill -- especially with the driver. Then the approaches have to be laser-like -- often to elevated and pinched in landing areas. If anything WF/W is the more demanding putting and short game requirements. However, if you can't hit the tee ball consistently -- for length, placement and for shaping when called upon the 5 handicap player will quickly face major headaches that won't go away.

Let me also point out that with any degree of wind I would dare say a place like Black Mesa can really add plenty to the mix.

[George Pazin]

Hey Matt, I agree with your mention of Black Mesa!

The other generality I'd add on this thread is course setup; most any course set up to play fast and firm would greatly accentuate the difference, imho.

[Bill_McBride]

Hey Matt, I agree with your mention of Black Mesa!

Black Mesa is all about playing within yourself and not trying to exceed your capabilities.  If you try to push your personal envelope, disaster lurks.  Scratch players are much better at course and self-management.

As Clint said, "A man has got to know his limitations."

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

oakmont
merion
pine valley
oak hill
all would do the job very handily

all will sort out the men from the boys

[Matt_Ward]

George, Bill:

The thing about BM is that if one happens to play the 1st hole with a mega downwind condition the rest of the day will be spent combatting a sidewind situation that will test the medal of any player. I played BM with such a wind condition -- averaging 35-40 mph and it was a bear to keep one's composure as balls that were hit less than purely would bound into all sort of unique positions.

[Bill_McBride]

George, Bill:

The thing about BM is that if one happens to play the 1st hole with a mega downwind condition the rest of the day will be spent combatting a sidewind situation that will test the medal of any player. I played BM with such a wind condition -- averaging 35-40 mph and it was a bear to keep one's composure as balls that were hit less than purely would bound into all sort of unique positions.

By "unique" I assume what you really mean is "unplayable" or "unfindable."   

That's why Black Mesa is so tough, off the fairway is no good.  Lots of width but the conditions you describe would be very difficult.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I meant "unique" in that playing angles would be really tough when wind forces balls further and futher from the optimum playing angles.

The course has more playable area than many similar high desert courses -- it's just that you need to handle the sheer velocity of the wind at times -- sidewinds are murderous -- good example -- the 2nd -- if the wind is howling right-to-left it's so e-z to overcook a tee shot and finish further left which only makes the approach that more demanding.

[Will MacEwen]

What sort of course makes it easier for a 5 to hang with a scratch?

I was thinking short and easy, but then I thought that scratch is going to go on a birdie shoot.

Maybe shortish and forgiving but with challenging greens?  I know it all depends on the relative strenghts and weaknesses of each player.

[JESII]

I'm curious how any handicap player can be stereotyped?

I know plenty of 5's that hit it better than plenty of scratch's.

[Rick Shefchik]

Nicklaus' more difficult designs demand high solid iron shots with nasty consequences for failure to perform.  Desert Highlands and La Paloma are two examples that come to mind. 

Another one is Nicklaus's Ritz Carlton at Dove Mountain. I played it last weekend and was constantly faced with low-to-mid-iron or hybrid approaches to greens guarded by front bunkers. He'd give you a sliver of green left or right of the bunker, but that wasn't much help as the greens tended to fall off to either side. Great course, and outstanding greens, but Jack doesn't design approach shots for players who can't hit it high and stop it.