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Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 05:22:04 PM »
~

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 05:25:07 PM »
After re-reading Steve's chronology, do you think it is fair to say the design of North Shore was a collaboration of Raynor and White?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 05:35:47 PM »
Tom,

Raynor was hired to design and White was the construction and "grow in guy." What about Macdonald? My thought is that he probably stopped by to view the construction progress since he was in the neighborhood. The Club's President mentioned all three of them as I noted.

If the Harmonie Club ever finds Raynor's "diagram" that would be an amazing find.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 05:43:18 PM »
Steve
You did not get the impression he was more than a grow in guy, that he was actively involved in the design?

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 06:37:18 PM »
"After re-reading Steve's chronology, do you think it is fair to say the design of North Shore was a collaboration of Raynor and White?"

Tom MacWood:

Frankly, I would say it is fair to say the design of North Shore was a collaboration of Raynor and White as far as a greenskeeper ("grow-in guy")/construction foreman type guy/(perhaps past and future architect---eg White) collaborated with the architect of record (Raynor) back then. The point is the club records are remarkably clear and explanatory about who the architect of record was (and others) and I don't think it is for any of us today to take the architectural attribution of North Shore CC in 1914/1915 any further than that.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:39:25 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 06:45:00 PM »
"What about Macdonald? My thought is that he probably stopped by to view the construction progress since he was in the neighborhood."


Steverino and Tom Mac:

No kidding Charlie Mac was in the neighborhood. He lived in Roslyn probably less than 2-3 miles from this site! That is exactly where I grew up.

By the way, for some research bonus points that will buy you absolutely nothing other than the respect of a few GCA geeks, can any of you tell me the name of Charlie's estate in Roslyn, L.I., N.Y.?

Georgie Boy, you keep your mouth shut for while, OK?  ;)

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 07:02:09 PM »

On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.

On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.


Steve
These are the two excerpts that lead me to believe White was much more than just a grow in guy - I underlined the particular phrases that stood out to me. When you consider this was Raynor's first design and the fact he had only been exposed to the game for a short period, I think it would make sense that White and/or Macdonald would play a more active role than they would later on when he was more seasoned.

Mac Plumart

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 07:06:24 PM »
Guys...I don't have anything to add, other than seeing this thread develop is educational and very interesting to me.  Great work!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2009, 07:51:04 PM »
TEP,
Ballyshear.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2009, 08:01:52 PM »
Jimmy - he named his cat, dog, wife, a couple of girl friends, all his homes and even Whigham, "Ballyshear"   :P
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2009, 08:10:02 PM »
George,
I didn't know that, but it reminds me of my old barber, Al Pesce.  When I was around 12 or so he told me  "Jimmy, call all your girlfriends Babe, or Honey, or something like that,  but always call them by the same name, that way you can't miss".

After 30 years I still call Sheryl 'Babe'.  ;D 



« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 03:54:07 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2009, 11:18:35 PM »
Tmac,

With so many "deep thoughts" going on there, I think Jack Handy must have had something to do with the course, and maybe the whole SNL writing team.....

I do find it interesting, but probably just a grammatical error that the word Have is in the first quote of yours (after deep thoughts)  It seems if they were just referring to Raynor, it would have read "Has".  Of course, there is nothing there that says that White's deep thought had anything to do with more than the greens.  Grow in only? No, but advice on greens soils mix, fertilizer during construction, etc., yes.

I know that lots of folks are involved in the final product, then as now.  But, just as my projects don't usually give well deserved credit to my turf consultant, or the greens testing lab, I am not sure these writings prove anything about whether White at that time of his career would have been considered a gca, in light of the fact that Raynor is called the leadin gca.

Is there anything here that is signifigant enough to warrant inclusion of White as a co-designer?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2009, 11:32:22 PM »
Jeff
Which man had more design experience in 1914?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2009, 12:27:27 AM »
TMac,

In quality or quantity?  Or both?  CBM made Raynor partner the next year, according to Whitten (can't find George's book right now) based on something, I presume.  And he was involved in the top courses of the day.

White oversaw some desgns and construction at courses where he was superintendent and perhaps picked up some outside consulting work because of his expertise in agronomy, as a pro, and from having been involved with the great CBM and Raynor, perhaps?

If White was the lead guy, why do the minutes say that Raynor is a leading gca, not White?  Look at the record later and I think you can see why.  Now, I am sure that they valued White's contribution in agronomy, and construction supervision, and he probably had some feature design input in that capacity, much the same as today.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2009, 06:27:49 AM »
TMac,

In quality or quantity?  Or both?  CBM made Raynor partner the next year, according to Whitten (can't find George's book right now) based on something, I presume.  And he was involved in the top courses of the day.

White oversaw some desgns and construction at courses where he was superintendent and perhaps picked up some outside consulting work because of his expertise in agronomy, as a pro, and from having been involved with the great CBM and Raynor, perhaps?

If White was the lead guy, why do the minutes say that Raynor is a leading gca, not White?  Look at the record later and I think you can see why.  Now, I am sure that they valued White's contribution in agronomy, and construction supervision, and he probably had some feature design input in that capacity, much the same as today.

Jeff
Who said anything about White being the lead guy? I said it appears to me it was a collaboration; that White was more than just a grow in guy (just as Peter Lees was more than just a grow in guy during his career). After all not long after this White went on to become a fairly prolific golf architect.

What design projects had Raynor been involved with prior to 1914 and it what capacity? I thought he was engineer who oversaw construction. Because he was relatively new to the game of golf I've never gotten the impression he was doing a lot of design work with CBM at NGLA & Lido. White had been involved in least two major redesigns prior to North Shore, which was a redesign as well. You seem to be ignoring what experience these men brought with them to this project.  

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2009, 07:46:55 AM »
The bottom line is going to be what North Shore does with all this information. It's their course.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2009, 08:06:26 AM »
"Which man had more design experience in 1914?"


Good question but for the purposes of North Shore GC's architectural attribution it would be more historically accurate to go with what North Shore GC thought about that and said about that at that time, not what we think about it 93 years later. Therefore, it seems appropriate that their history of architectural attribution go with what North Shore's president at the time, Henry Calman, said about Raynor as the architect and their belief about the stature of Raynor as an architect at the March 2, 1915 annual meeting of the club. If the club felt White had as much or more experience as an architect as Raynor at that time or that that was his co-roll in the project with Raynor there doesn't seem to be any evident reason why they wouldn't have said so in that annual meeting report.

I also agree with Jeff Brauer that really good grow-in/construction foremen are very important with GCA projects but they have generally never been given co-design status with the architect of record and I see no reason to start that habit or attribution on here. I don't see this as taking anything away from Robert White at North Shore in the teens because his roll seemed very clearly defined and stated by the club's records.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 08:16:15 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2009, 08:40:54 AM »
TMac,

I think the club minutes wording (Raynor is a leading gca) show that they hired him to be the gca, and hired White for his agronomic and construction experience.  Those are the words from those minutes that jump out at ME. Now, as a pro, I am also sure he wanted and probably got some input, being there every day.  It may be semantics, but there appears to be a gc design contract in place for Raynor whereas White was hired by the club to perform whatever duites came up, which included building a new golf course, or parts thereof.  

That was pretty typical, it seems, in those days. The gca could get there even less often than now (although this was close to home for Raynor) and so a local pro or super with some construction experience took on the role of what would be the contractors field supervisor now, and was responsible for interpreting the plans (or plasticene models)

It appears that White had two experiences, both at clubs where he was also pro, and both were in renovations of existing cousres. I am sure it was a factor in him getting the North Shore job and they were glad to have him. But, I am under the impression that he used those two and this job as a springboard to his own career, which was not big in numbers, but good enough to become a charter member of ASGCA.

As to Raynor, CBM saw something in him in the first month or so of work at NGLA in 1907. He hired him full time based on his work, and he was obviously a quick study. CBM made him partner in 1915, and was obviously touting him at the time of NS as the lead designer, even if it predates the actual partnership.  CBM wouldn't have made Raynor partner if he couldn't design. CBM is well known to have participated in only a few pet projects after his initial successess.  If he wasn't the main driving force in those other designs, it had to be Raynor, no? And there is no doubt that Raynor benefitted by being associated with CBM's "star" in a star system (then and now)

No question the job got done and perhaps the problem lies in us trying to attribute years later by our own standards.  There is no question that I am applying my experience to the situation, which has club pros, supers and a lot of others involved in the design, but with the gca of record getting the credit.  The whole process was a lot less formal then, so it might be confusing, but I wonder if gca.com or some other interested historically inclined party ought to figure out a standard for attribubtion back in the old days?

Just look at the courses that have spurred the arguments, and your observations thereof (just an example, I could also use mine and as noted above, I think I know where they tend to be skewed) but this group debates whether:

..... a one day study of Merion by Barker or CBM constitutes design.  Or whether hundreds of letters by Wilson regarding turf and agronomy means he was more of a construction guy only.  You downplayed Wilson for design credit.

.......if the construction superintendent (and strong personality) of Burbeck should get any credit wih Tilly, who by contract had ten days of work at BP.....You downplayed Burbeck for credit

......if a jack of all trades like White (first PGA Pres, charter ASGCA member, and came to America to study agronomy) should get attribution at North Shore when Raynor had a contract for design?  You are playing up White for credit (granting that he had two courses before this one that he was involved with, so its not that unreasonable, and he did go on to pretty nice career afterwards. But so did Wilson!)

Each of those cases is slightly different, to be sure.  The tendency for most is to attribute the design to the most well known person.  Your tendency is to try to find out more about who did what, which I admire, but I don't think we will ever know if White changed the plan for any particular green at North Shore, etc.

I doubt design contracts were as clear as they are now.  All of which leaves us the same question - should the on site guy (White in this case) get co-design credit with the contracted designer?  Or, for convenience, should we just have a category like "on site supervisor/designer?"  With Ross, you would have lots of nearly co-credits, like Maples, etc.  Ditto with most of the others who surely had some design input by shear virtue of being on site every day.

Even in modern times, I think there is a push to get the contractor and design associates recognized for their contributions, so its not out of the question and basically, it seems that is what you are trying to do for the "old days."  I don't think anyone disagrees that White was involved here, and I propose the plan in an effort to save us the debate on every course of "who should get credit."

It could happen!  ;D  Then again, probably not! ;)

Keep digging for history. I guess without the debate, it wouldn't be as interesting.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2009, 09:21:27 AM »
"TEP,
Ballyshear."


I believe the name of CBM's estate in Southampton was Ballyshear. His home in Roslyn/Westbury Long Island was called Phoenix Lodge.


Furthermore, Georgie Boy, I'm not sure what Charlie called his cat or his dog, but Ballyshear was not the name of his estate in mid-Long Island, and depending on his mood it's hard to say what he called his son-in-law Herbie J. Whigs. He also did not call his wife Ballyshear or certainly not to her face. The deep records show he called her "Sweetum-Pups" if he knew what was good for him and if he didn't want to get into some seriously deep shit!

But for everyone else a deep resource letter indicates that come the early 1920s he pretty much called them all IDIOTS!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 10:05:31 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2009, 09:29:28 AM »
I think what is even more interesting than Raynor and White at North Shore or as explained and described by the North Shore club records is the distinction between the way the club records explained and described Raynor and Macdonald.

In my opinion, this is probably precisely the way Macdonald both wanted it and perhaps presented it at that time for reasons that were particularly important to him at precisely that basic time!!  ;)

I think this is an example of an evolutionary distinction amongst some of the architects of that very time the reasons for which we all really do need to understand and appreciate a lot better than we seem to at this time.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 09:53:20 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2009, 10:04:53 AM »
TePaul,

My previous posts hints at what I thought was the driving force in how CBM presented Raynor - he woud become partner in 1915 and CBM was already touting him as a leading gca, mentored by no one else but himself, to boost his fortunes.  In 1914 they were straddling the fine line of CBM being involved, but with Raynor being the main contact.

It strikes me not unlike getting  "Pete Dye" course but really getting Perry doing the work.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2009, 10:08:28 AM »
Jeff
What design or redesign experience did Raynor have prior to the North Shore project? What were his responsibilites on CBM's projects prior to North Shore...I thought he was the construction guy?

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2009, 10:11:05 AM »
Jeffrey:

Frankly, I do not believe Charles Blair Macdonald ever looked at anyone as his "partner" in golf course architecture and I think there were various and interesting reasons for that. In many ways it's probably no different from the fact that Hugh Wilson never exactly looked at William Flynn as his "partner" either!  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2009, 10:20:31 AM »
TePaul,

According to Whitten, Flynn and Wilson were to be partners, but Wilson's death precluded it.  Apparently they had one co-design on the boards.  And, CBM did make Raynor a Partner in 1915 (according to Whitten again, I haven't found my Bahto book)

TMac,

We will never know exactly how much Raynor was involved, but there have been many posts (even on the Merion thread showing that the trend started early) that CBM had others (presumably Raynor) do most of the leg work and he simply reviewed and marked up the final plans.  If not Raynor, then why make him a partner.  If not Raynor in 1910-1915 when he became partner, then who?  As an associate of a busy gca who didn't really have the patience to do much on more than a few projects, I believe Raynor got some design experience along the way.  Subsequent history proves he was no slouch.

I can't really add any more to that. Its just my opinion based on reading the same books we all have access to, together with my experience of how much and what kind of experience good associates tend to get.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2009, 10:32:14 AM »
"TePaul,

According to Whitten, Flynn and Wilson were to be partners, but Wilson's death precluded it.  Apparently they had one co-design on the boards.  And, CBM did make Raynor a Partner in 1915 (according to Whitten again, I haven't found my Bahto book)."


Jeffrey:

I'm aware that Whitten may've said that about Wilson and Flynn but I'm afraid he was only being speculative. Mr. Whitten definitely does not have and never has had the massive volume of historic material on Wilson and Flynn that Merion has and certainly Wayne Morrison and I have and the fact is there is not an iota of mention or implication in any of it that Wilson actually considered becoming a partner of Flynn's as in the context of going into the golf architectural business with Flynn as Flynn did with Howard Toomey in the early 1920s.

The fact is both Hugh and particularly Alan Wilson were completely opposed to ever profiting remuneratively from golf architecture or golf or anything to do with either.

The very same thing can accurately be said both for and about C.B. Macdonald.

I would also say, that with them, and also including George Thomas, that fascinating age of the so-called "Amateur/Sportsman" architect and their truly significant courses and projects came to an end, never to be seen again in the evolution and future history of golf course architecture, at least not in the way they went about it in their amateur careers!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 10:36:52 AM by TEPaul »