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Steve_ Shaffer

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The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« on: December 08, 2009, 08:46:32 PM »
I visited the NY Historical Society on Friday, December 4,2009 and reviewed the contents of the North Shore and Harmonie Club records as contained in volumes 29,36,37 &62:
http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/nyhs/harmonie.html

I did so because of the disparity in the attribution of the design of the North Shore CC course as referenced in the thread at golfclubatlas.com:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42325.0/

George Bahto mentioned Raynor. Tom MacWood mentioned White. I relied upon Dr. Bill Quirin’s reference to Tillinghast from his piece in his book “The Clubs of the Metropolitan Golf Association.”  Phil Young supported Tillinghast.The Club's website said Tillinghast. I decided to visit the New York Historical Society and find out what I could from the records of the Harmonie Club that contain the actual minutes of the Board of Governors of North Shore CC from its formation in 1914 to the end of 1918
The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.
2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.
3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.
4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.
5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.
6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.
7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.
9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.
10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.
11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.
12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes

The only item I found pertaining to the Club in the scrapbooks was a copy of the Annual Report of the President dated March 13, 1915 referenced above.

I reviewed the Harmonie Club history, “One Hundred Years- The Harmonie Club- 1852-1952” and could find no reference to the North Shore golf course other than it was built.

It should be noted that copying of the Minutes was not permitted.    I was told that digital images could be made but I did not know that in advance of my visit. I did have the front page and one of the two pages referencing the golf course of the President’s report dated March 13, 1915 copied by a librarian who used an overhead copier as the item was stapled in the scrapbook.

This was a very interesting and rewarding experience. There is nothing like old-fashioned hands on research. Not everything in the world is on the internet via old newspaper and magazine articles.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:51:28 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 08:55:09 PM »
Steve
Thanks for the great information. It is ironic that on the other thread George was the first to concede Raynor probably was not involved, and as it turns out he was right all along. That plasticine models referred to by White makes sense for Raynor too. I believe you just documented Raynor's first known design.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 08:58:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 08:57:24 PM »
I have presented this information to North Shore and have requested that they contact The Harmonie Club to find out if the Raynor "diagram" still exists. Since this is the busy holiday season, this may take awhile.

Also, since North Shore has been sold recently, and some members have been following the previous thread, they will present whatever documention they have in their records concerning the aforementioned payment to Tillinghast. Perhaps he was hired to revise Raynor's work after 1918. One of the problems may have been that North Shore did not know that these minutes ever existed and were commingled with Harmonie Club records that were donated to the NY Historical Society many years ago.

Also, see Dr. Quirin's Feature Interview here where he references a Raynor-Macdonald resemblance as did George Bahto in his original post in the previous thread. If this attribution holds up, this is one of the first Raynor courses after he went into the business after leaving Macdonald.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:46:25 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC ?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 09:57:24 PM »
This was a very interesting and rewarding experience. There is nothing like old-fashioned hands on research. Not everything in the world is on the internet via old newspaper and magazine articles.

Steve,
Great job. Shouldn't it be noted though that it was the discovery and presentation of resources found on the web that instigated your trip?  ;)

Again, nice work.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC ?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 10:07:35 PM »
JimK:

That's true. I haven't read this thread yet but Steve certainly has mentioned that it was Phil Young who figured out those North Shore Club administrative records were reposited at the New York Historical Society in NYC. He read me a few of them over the phone and they certainly sounded to me to be some of the most complete and explanatory records of this kind of thing I know of from a club. That actually seems pretty typical for those kind of rich and organized NY business people of that time---eg their records and meeting minutes tended to be complete and comprehensive.

PS:
Bill Quirin said if he can do it he might try to check his records to determine why Tillinghast was attributed as the architect of North Shore in his book "The Golf Courses of the MGA."
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 10:15:53 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC ?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 10:19:58 PM »
TomP

I have a different recollection of it, and after going back and reading the recent NSCC thread I think you would too.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2009, 11:06:02 PM »
Jim,

I did post the link to the NY Historical Society's archives in the previous thread after receiving that information from Phil Young but the actual Minutes are not online so I had to visit. I went there fully expecting Dr. Quirin's piece to be vindicated;however, when I saw the names of Raynor, Macdonald and White mentioned I was amazed and thrilled.

Take a video tour of the course:

https://northshoreccli.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=78625

Sometimes, the old "looks like a duck" test pans out.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 11:12:59 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2009, 11:14:52 PM »
Steve,
George did have the link to the Robert White article posted right off the bat, and there was a lot of good info posted from other such articles, but it really took your legwork to put the capper on it all.
Digging for information in as many places as it can be found is the best way to arrive at the truest historical conclusion, while digging in one’s heels to protect turf, or because of perceived slights, is the worst.

I think it's pretty cool that the only one who had it right in the first place was George.  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009, 11:19:58 PM »
Jim,

The question remains about Tillinghast's possible involvement. This case is still "under review" as they say in the NFL.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009, 11:21:35 PM »
Steve,
Yep, it sure is, but a lot just got settled too.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 02:37:06 AM »
It is great to see actual coonfirmation of what I have believed for the past 15 years.  The 8th tee at North Shore is only a long par 5 away from the 16th green at Engineers, so I have been fortunate to play there many times over the years.  I once worked at Silver Spring, which was Bank's final course that was completed by White.  White had softened and rounded many of the features that are normally identified with MacRaynorBanks.  Playing North Shore feels and looks like a Raynor.  Interestingly, the Road Hole green is not too dissimilar to the one at Huntington--an Emmet design.  There are some bunkers that look Tillie like, so it would not be surprising if he did do some work.

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 06:34:02 AM »
"TomP
I have a different recollection of it, and after going back and reading the recent NSCC thread I think you would too."



Jim Kennedy:

What exactly do you have a different recollection of after going back and reading the recent NSCC thread?

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 06:48:47 AM »
Matter of fact, it is probably a very good and very instructive excercise for all of us to go back and read through the other North Shore thread. If one does that carefully it becomes quite easy to understand how and why some of these threads and discussions both create some potentially serious misinterpretations of fact and history as well as both why and how easily these threads can lead to various diversions into other subjects not particularly pertinent to a thread's subject and question.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:50:55 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 08:00:07 AM »
TEP,
What's easy to understand when re-reading the NSCC thread is the derision that gets heaped on any one who suggests something other than the status quo. 

It's a thread that has many similarities to the recent attribution dust-up concerning San Francisco GC, another one that's still up in the air, at least until SeanTully presents what he knows to the club and then to GCA.


 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 08:15:08 AM »
Jim

Sometimes a club can be wrong in their attribution due to many factors- missing records among them. In this case, the Tillinghast attribution may yet come to realization. I was intrigued by the February 29, 1916 reference of a letter from Raynor being referred  to the Greens Committee.What did it say?
I'm sure the new owner of the club- Donald Zucker, a Tillinghast aficianado- would relish finding whatever evidence the Club has given the Tillinghast "brand" in the MGA- Winged Foot, Bethpage Black and Baltusrol, for example.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 08:41:24 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 08:32:22 AM »
"TEP,
What's easy to understand when re-reading the NSCC thread is the derision that gets heaped on any one who suggests something other than the status quo."


Jim Kennedy:

That's interesting. I just read through the thread again and I really don't see any derision at all. People simply offer information or their opinions on various points, others respond, agreeing of disagreeing, they seem to get answers and the thread goes on.

It seems to me that the diversion into Tillie's list of courses is somewhat off the point of who designed North Shore GC in 1914 and 1915 but those kinds of things are pretty common in most all these threads like that one.

The only time on that North Shore thread that I can see even the idea of derision came up was when you posted on that thread that you didn't see any of of it---yet!  ;)

It seems like that's the kind of thing you are most interested in on here on a number of these threads when various contributors on this website are part of these threads.
  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 08:37:59 AM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 08:41:08 AM »
TEP,
I'm going to save myself the labor of plucking and reposting every blatant instance of that derision. I'm willing to bet that it's a plain as the nose on one's face, if the reader can look beyond that nose.

Steve,
I don't want to misunderstand this sentence:  I'm sure the new owner of the club- Donald Zucker, a Tillinghast aficianado- would relish finding whatever evidence the Club has given the Tillinghast "brand" in the MGA- Winged Foot, Bethpage Black and Baltusrol, for example.

Can you clarify for me?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 08:52:44 AM »
Jim,

See the NY Post article referenced in an earlier thread. Also, the Newsday article, which is no longer available online, described Zucker as a big fan of Tillinghast. Perhaps he values the Tillinghast "brand" very high. Does that clarify this for you?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 08:54:37 AM »
"TEP,
I'm going to save myself the labor of plucking and reposting every blatant instance of that derision. I'm willing to bet that it's a plain as the nose on one's face, if the reader can look beyond that nose."


Thank you; I think that would be an excellent idea as it seem the idea of derision or blatant derision comes up on these threads only when you decide it is time to get on these thread and bring it up!  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 09:09:23 AM »
"TEP,
What's easy to understand when re-reading the NSCC thread is the derision that gets heaped on any one who suggests something other than the status quo."


Jim Kennedy:

That's interesting. I just read through the thread again and I really don't see any derision at all. People simply offer information or their opinions on various points, others respond, agreeing of disagreeing, they seem to get answers and the thread goes on.

It seems to me that the diversion into Tillie's list of courses is somewhat off the point of who designed North Shore GC in 1914 and 1915 but those kinds of things are pretty common in most all these threads like that one.

The only time on that North Shore thread that I can see even the idea of derision came up was when you posted on that thread that you didn't see any of of it---yet!  ;)

It seems like that's the kind of thing you are most interested in on here on a number of these threads when various contributors on this website are part of these threads.
 

I highlighted (in red ) what you changed on your initial post after I made a reply to it, so I'll reply to that part now.

To your edit/added sentence #1: Again, I feel confident that anyone approaching that thread without an axe to grind will see what I saw. You didn't.

To your edit/added sentence #2: It seems that you are most interested on here in doing nothing but verbally attacking those who don't agree with you. Why don't you just put a sock in it and let this thread evolve along the civilized path that it had been on, until you made this last revision. I know this won't satisfy you because when I asked you to stop attacking by sending me nasty personal messages you did say you'd keep doing it in public, on threads. You are a small man.


Steve,
Yes, and thank you. As you mentioned earlier, and I agree with, the search isn't over and it surely isn't going to bother me if AWT was there after Raynor. How many courses made the transition from the teens to the twenties without having someone come in and 'modernize' them.  I think few.     
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 09:14:47 AM »
"TEP,
I'm going to save myself the labor of plucking and reposting every blatant instance of that derision. I'm willing to bet that it's a plain as the nose on one's face, if the reader can look beyond that nose."

Jim Kennedy:

Thank you; I think that would be an excellent idea as it seem the subject and the idea of derision or blatant derision comes up on these threads only when you decide it is time to get on these thread and bring up the subject!  ;)

So, I propose to you at this point that you stop bringing up the subject on these threads and then perhaps we can just drop the subject and avoid the problem.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:20:00 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 09:18:21 AM »
Well, I see even if you said you were going to save yourself the time and labor, you just couldn't help yourself.

Why don't you just delete those red examples and your commentary on derision you just posted or delete that post of yours so the rest of us can get back to the actual subject of this thread?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:20:38 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 09:21:58 AM »
Hey, there was very little derision on this thread because I chose not to throw in my two cents worth, even though I know nothing of NSCC. I was smart nough to realize it and shut up.  This has been fairly civilized until some decide to discuss other panelists, rather than the course in question itself, no?

Jim's main point above is true - the truth of those attributions seems to be that truth is somewhere between the glossy club histories and the occaisional newspaper article.  Jump to earlier conclusions at your peril!  Some of the earlier attribution mistakes seem to be made from using one source (perhaps repeatedly and unknowingly) but in our zest to learn, I see we still make the occaisional mistake, too.

IMHO< its also a good example of why actual club records if available should always be part of the mix.  Newspaper articles are an abstraction, often edited to fit space, written for a different audience (such as the business pages) and always therefore subject to interpretation.  I know from the little bit of research I have done, that some new document always comes to the surface, usually, about ten minutes after I have made a positive declaration on this or that.....

I think its a give that some posters are going to disagree. If we keep the discussions to even the disagreement, we can avoid the train wrecks
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George_Bahto

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Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 04:25:34 PM »
Steve - what a great job and thank you for verifying my original thinking about those greens at North Shore


you're information's got catching up my North Shore chapter - now without all the "perhap"'s , "probably"'s and such   ;D


Robert Mercer Deruntz stated: "Playing North Shore feels and looks like a Raynor.  Interestingly, the Road Hole green is not too dissimilar to the one at Huntington--an Emmet design"

It sure does - that's an excellent rendition at Huntington - a number of years ago I was taking Shack out to NGLA but we met early in th day at Huntington and walked the course together ..... I haven't been there lately but the, then, assistant super miles McLaughlin (under super Glen Creutz) was in the midst of a very proper restoration of the course  -   I don’t know if either are still there but that course should be seen by anyone interested in the style courses we've been talking about here.

                 
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: The Mystery of North Shore CC - Raynor's First Course?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 05:03:26 PM »
Georgie Boy:

What Steverino Shaeffer found out in New York sure does confirm what you thought about the look of those North Shore greens, doesn't it? But look, here's what you said on that North Shore thread BEFORE Steverino even had the chance to go to New York and check out those NS club records:

"Well. given all this "new" information, I'm taking North Shore off the list of Seth Raynor golf courses
.........   and certainly I congratulate who ever built some of those great greens."


Next time, Georgie Boy, don't give up on Raynor and what you believe in quite that easily, OK?   ;)