Letter Colt, MacKenzie and Alison

[Jeff_Mingay]

Neil,

Albert Kahn's work is legendary in the Detroit-Windsor area. He designed the school my daughter's heading to right now!

Sean, being a Detroiter of sorts (!), beat me to it. During the 1920s, Detroit was almost the "place to be". Lots of money, and lots of stuff going on. I think it was the third largest city in America at the time... and growing. 

It's sadly much different these days. But there's still some really cool building architecture in the city, and some pretty good golf courses in and around town.

[Sean_Tully]

Neil

I think that you mean Louis Sullivan in regards to the "father of the modern skyscraper."
An interesting side note is the architect Louis Kahn and a film by his son called "My Architect." The son tries to understand his father by digging into his fathers work. An intetesting study on a number of different levels.

Tully

[Tom MacWood]

Albert Kahn designed the original clubhouse at CC of Detroit, which was right on the lake, actually I believe it was the second clubhouse, and the present clubhouse is the third. The present clubhouse is one of the cooler clubhouses I've run across.

[Sean_A]

Albert Kahn designed the original clubhouse at CC of Detroit, which was right on the lake, actually I believe it was the second clubhouse, and the present clubhouse is the third. The present clubhouse is one of the cooler clubhouses I've run across.

Tommy Mac

I think CCofD is actually on its 4th house - of which #s 2 & 3 were both A Khan designs.  The latest house (not a Khan) is part of the second & third course the firm of Colt & Alison designed.  The first C&A course, near the lake, is no longer. Of course, my memory could be off, but I think the Khan house is what through my research into a tizzy, many, many years ago.  I hadn't realized there were two separate Khan houses.

As an aside, I think Detroit GC still uses a A Khan clubhouse.  My memory is very faded now, but I think it is a beauty.

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

Here is the history:

http://tinyurl.com/yc79j8a

[Ian Andrew]

Louis Khan designed the Kimbell Art Museum in Forth Worth

The vaulted ceilings are pretty cool and that is one of the truly grand interior spaces.

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
Louis Sullivan of course!! Got my Louises mixed up (embarrassing for an architect)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is this a true story of a telegram exchange between Colt and Alison:

Colt: How is the new office in Detroit coming?

Allison:  Its a good news, bad news situation.  Good news is that the office is within walking distance of many downtown featuers.

Colt:  What's the bad news?

Allison: No one has made it yet!

Colt:

[Niall Hay]

As an aside, I think Detroit GC still uses a A Khan clubhouse.  My memory is very faded now, but I think it is a beauty.

[/quote]

DGC is an Albert Kahn Clubhouse

[Niall Hay]

Dale, If you could add me to the list, I'd appreciate it.

Interesting that Allison not only listed "courses designed"; but also listed a few clubs they "advised."   Pine Valley is on the "courses designed" list, not the "clubs advised" list.

"Among the courses designed by us on this side of the Atlantic were those at Pine Valley, the Detroit Country Club. the Toronto Golf Club, and the Hamilton Golf & Country Club; and that among those designed in Europe were the Eden Course, St. Andrews; Turnberry; the New Course, Troon; Hopwood, Manchester; Allwoodley, Leeds; Handsworth, Birmimgham, Stoke Poges; Swinley Forest; Addington; St. George;’s Hill, Weybridge; St. Cloud, Paris; and Knocke, Belgium.

Among the 150 clubs advised by us last year were the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews and the Prestwick Golf Club."

Remarkable list….what did they do at Prestwick?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I think the word 'advised' is open to interpretation. We know, for instance, that Mac drew a plan for Seacroft in Lincolnshire. It wasn't used, but I expect he felt that he had advised the club - and probably got a fee for it, too.

[Sean_A]

I think the penny just dropped concerning Handsworth being mentioned in the letter.  It was written about in Darwin's Golf Courses of the British Isles.  Many people would have come across the name even if they knew little of the course.  The question is, why did Darwin include Handsworth in his book?

Can someone post the letter, the link doesn't work for me.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I think the word 'advised' is open to interpretation. We know, for instance, that Mac drew a plan for Seacroft in Lincolnshire. It wasn't used, but I expect he felt that he had advised the club - and probably got a fee for it, too.

MacKenzie did not make much distinction between "advised" and "implemented" because early in his career, in England, clubs did not pay him to follow up on the implementation of his advice.  I would guess he didn't always know what had been done or not done.

Someone asked about Prestwick above ... I think somewhere in The Spirit of St. Andrews MacKenzie mentions having advised Prestwick about the short hole out at the far corner of the course ... the 11th.  But, I'm not sure they did what he suggested.

[Niall Hay]

MacKenzie did not make much distinction between "advised" and "implemented" because early in his career, in England, clubs did not pay him to follow up on the implementation of his advice.  I would guess he didn't always know what had been done or not done.

Someone asked about Prestwick above ... I think somewhere in The Spirit of St. Andrews MacKenzie mentions having advised Prestwick about the short hole out at the far corner of the course ... the 11th.  But, I'm not sure they did what he suggested.

The 11th at Prestwick is the long par 3. Great hole. 

[Niall C]

I think there must have been a similar thread a while back as I remember posting that it was Colt who was involved at Turnberry in February 1909. its been a while since I read the report, but he took what was a fairly typical course of the time with lots of "bad length" holes and proposed lengthening and shortening holes to make them "good length" by way of new tees and greens or both, with some bunker changes thrown in as well. Some of what he proposed got done but not sure how much.

MacKenzie at Prestwick - never seen Mac's report but Darwin talked about Mac's proposals in his column in Country Life. Neil Crafter may have posted it on another thread. Mac's proposals included lowering the bank on the right hand side on the first, so as to make the green more visible from the right thereby encouraging the risk and reward shot of playing towards the railway line off the tee.

On the second, he proposed placing the tee back the way on rising ground on the other side of the Pow burn which I think was carried out at that time. He also strongly recommended against creating a single hole out of the 2nd and 3rd which the club were thinking of at the time.

He recommended doing away with the 7th which Darwin described as a stupid hole of indeterminate length (from memory). In doing so a new hole was created by going from a tee adjacent to the 6th green to either the 8th green or perhaps a new green to the left of it. It looks to me that this was carried out but not sure whether the existing 8th (new 7th) green was used or whether a totally new one was built.

The old tenth/new ninth was lengthened and dog-legged with a new green. The old 11th/new 10th was also virtually a new hole with a new tee and a new green pushed further back on a plateau to the right of the existing green. The new 11th then was to partially use the existing 11th green which Darwin said Mac had high hopes for.

There was a few other changes that I'd need to have a look at the article to remind myself of but by my reckoning Mac could claim to have designed 3 or 4 new holes, assuming all of his recommendations were followed.

Niall

He also

[Niall Hay]

Niall

He also

He also

[Niall C]

Thats what happens when you're typing against the clock !

He also recommended the removal of the grass bank and bunker in front of the Wall green as well as raising the back of a couple of greens including he 18th. Darwins article suggests that some of the work has been done and some is still be considered but unfortunately doesn't make clear what.

What would be interesting to know is who carried out the work. I suspect it might have been there own greenkeeper with some added labour.

Niall