[Jason Topp]

Joe:

I'd like to introduce myself - I am Jason Topp 

Tell us a bit about your experience owning a course:

--  How did you wind up owning a course and what caused you to sell or otherwise get rid of it?
--  What ownership perspectives are overlooked in discussions on this site?

[Joe Hancock]

What's your Top Ten in the Midwest?

Of the courses I've played, in no particular order:

Crystal Downs
Kingsley
Lawsonia
Greywalls
Pilgrim's Run
Mines
High Pointe
Lost Dunes
The Dunes Club
Angel's Crossing


Joe

[Joe Hancock]

Joe:

I'd like to introduce myself - I am Jason Topp 

Tell us a bit about your experience owning a course:

--  How did you wind up owning a course and what caused you to sell or otherwise get rid of it?
--  What ownership perspectives are overlooked in discussions on this site?

Well, finally nice to meet you again, Jason......

I married a golf course owners' daughter.... . While that is true, I developed my skills as a superintendent away from Grand Island. I also served as the construction superintendent on two different new golf course before being offered the opportunity to buy the family's golf course. After 11 years of ownership, we had an offer to sell the course...to my friend who owns the Mines GC. We were struggling due to a decrease in the number of rounds(Michigan= bad economy), and after a lot of tough soul-searching we decided it was the right time(having now developed as a shaper w/ other opportunities) to sell and not get ourselves in any deeper, debt-wise. As it turns out, our timing (sold in December of '07) was perfect, as I'm sure we wouldn't haven't survived September of '08.

Ownership perspectives not talked about? Well, I don't know how many on here deal with the general public in a retail capacity, but especially here in West Michigan(very frugal, shall we say?) it's brutal. Also, any time you combine public golf with alcohol you have trouble no matter how much you monitor it. Apart from that, there's just the general business decisions that many other business people go through.

Joe

[Bill_McBride]

Joe:

I'd like to introduce myself - I am Jason Topp 

Tell us a bit about your experience owning a course:

--  How did you wind up owning a course and what caused you to sell or otherwise get rid of it?
--  What ownership perspectives are overlooked in discussions on this site?

Well, finally nice to meet you again, Jason......

I married a golf course owners' daughter.... . While that is true, I developed my skills as a superintendent away from Grand Island. I also served as the construction superintendent on two different new golf course before being offered the opportunity to buy the family's golf course. After 11 years of ownership, we had an offer to sell the course...to my friend who owns the Mines GC. We were struggling due to a decrease in the number of rounds(Michigan= bad economy), and after a lot of tough soul-searching we decided it was the right time(having now developed as a shaper w/ other opportunities) to sell and not get ourselves in any deeper, debt-wise. As it turns out, our timing (sold in December of '07) was perfect, as I'm sure we wouldn't haven't survived September of '08.

Ownership perspectives not talked about? Well, I don't know how many on here deal with the general public in a retail capacity, but especially here in West Michigan(very frugal, shall we say?) it's brutal. Also, any time you combine public golf with alcohol you have trouble no matter how much you monitor it. Apart from that, there's just the general business decisions that many other business people go through.

Joe

But isn't there more profit selling booze than tee times?   

[Joe Hancock]

Bill,

We didn't sell it, but "allowed" it......We couldn't obtain a license to sell due to the fact that a bar was located directly across the street, and an adjacent campground held a license. The township controls the number of licenses in an area, and it was felt that there was enough opportunity to get alcohol without us holding a license as well. It sucked, and if we had prohibited alcohol altogether we likely would have been out of business years ago.

So, in the end, we profited zero dollars from selling alcohol, but reaped all the dividends of golfers using(abusing?) alcohol. Not a magical combination by any means.

Joe

[Eric Smith]

So, in the end, we profited zero dollars from selling alcohol, but reaped all the dividends of golfers using(abusing?) alcohol. Not a magical combination by any means.

Man that sounds so familiar.  My last golf job was running a place with the same situation. We didn't sell beer but allowed folks to bring their own coolers and to some that was an excuse to bring the whole case (for themselves.) It did get fugly at times as the sun went down and we're looking for those last carts.

[JC Jones]

These stories make me miss working at the course.  Seriously.

[Lou_Duran]

Mr. Hancock,

It sounds like working with difficult customers in a fragile economy is not very attractive.  I had always thought that liquor sales was the only way to get F & B into the black.  Given the inherent risk in the industry and the demanding nature of the work in terms of hours and conditions, what type of profit margin would you say is appropriate to make it worthwhile?  What areas of the country might provide such opportunities?

From a resident's perspective, can MI make a comeback?  Might an application to Crystal Downs receive positive consideration in the foreseeable future?

   

[Eric Smith]

These stories make me miss working at the course.  Seriously.

JC I'm sure we'd agree that one of the rewards of working at a golf course was found at closing time after big outings.  More often than not those free ice cold brewskis left in the coolers made the day's work a little easier.

[JC Jones]

These stories make me miss working at the course.  Seriously.

JC I'm sure we'd agree that one of the rewards of working at a golf course was found at closing time after big outings.  More often than not those free ice cold brewskis left in the coolers made the day's work a little easier.

You know it.  Hosing down carts while drinking is one of life's true pleasures.

[JC Jones]

 Might an application to Crystal Downs receive positive consideration in the foreseeable future?
 

In my wildest dreams  

With respect to your other questions, as a (now) part time michigan resident, I hope so.  Granted my time is spent in northern Michigan where the effects are felt as badly as elsewhere, but I think the state needs to do a serious re-tooling in order to produce enough jobs for people to start spending money again.  And, discretionary dollars are what keep northern MI afloat.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

We didn't sell it, but "allowed" it......We couldn't obtain a license to sell due to the fact that a bar was located directly across the street, and an adjacent campground held a license. The township controls the number of licenses in an area, and it was felt that there was enough opportunity to get alcohol without us holding a license as well. It sucked, and if we had prohibited alcohol altogether we likely would have been out of business years ago.

So, in the end, we profited zero dollars from selling alcohol, but reaped all the dividends of golfers using(abusing?) alcohol. Not a magical combination by any means.

Joe

All the hassle with none of the rewards.  Not a pretty picture.  I feel your pain, even retroactively.

[Joe Hancock]

Mr. Hancock,

It sounds like working with difficult customers in a fragile economy is not very attractive.  I had always thought that liquor sales was the only way to get F & B into the black.  Given the inherent risk in the industry and the demanding nature of the work in terms of hours and conditions, what type of profit margin would you say is appropriate to make it worthwhile?  What areas of the country might provide such opportunities?

From a resident's perspective, can MI make a comeback?  Might an application to Crystal Downs receive positive consideration in the foreseeable future?

   

Lou,

From my own experience, all I can tell you is that the payoff of owning and operating a golf course isn't while you're owning and operating...it's when you sell. That's a huge roll of the dice. I would have done much worse had I let sentimentality get in the way of logic when I sold. Had I waited merely another year to sell, my take home would have been a whole lot worse.

From that perspective, i would say there is opportunity out there. By a fire sale type operation that needs TLC and sweat equity....run it for 7-10 years and then sell when the market/ and opportunities present themselves.

Michigan needs to diversify. It has been to dependent on the auto industry. Ask any good investor or business person, and they will tell you to diversify your investments. I had all my eggs in one basket(the golf course) and I was lucky it panned out...I could have easily had to walk away with nothing.....and that's what Michigan is having to do right now.

Joe

[Lou_Duran]

JC,

I heard today that China has surpassed the U.S. as the world's largest buyer of trucks and automobiles.  What "re-tooling" are you talking about and how can it be accomplished in such a punitive business environment as MI?  Other than some wonderful universities (okay, I include MSU, but am talking mostly about UoM) what advantages does the state have?  We looked at a very nice golf course up there available at a significant reduction from replacement cost and could not come close to making the numbers work.

I do hope that things can be turned around.  It seems that all those people leaving the high-tax, high-cost, high-unemployment states and coming to Texas are bringing their destructive attitudes and political preferences with them.  If they continue to migrate we are not going to be much different.  The horror! 

Pity about Crystal Downs.

Joe,

Big Pharma is being crucified by the populist politicians and the mainstream press for its "obscene profits".  It is my understanding that the industry's profit margins are in the 2% to 3% range and the ROI is below the average of all other businesses.

When I was brokering commercial real estate, investors were looking for 8%-12% cap rates, with 20%+ ROIs (through better management and positive leverage).  Riskier investments required higher returns.

With "profit" being a bad word today, who in their right mind would invest in anything?  It seems that the primary motive would be the enjoyment of owning and operating a golf course, the lifestyle if you will, and eventually turning it over to your heirs (I am aware of the problem with the death tax).   But the way you describe it- which is consistent with what I've heard from a number of GMs I've talked to in private over the last couple of years- it doesn't sound like much fun: tight money, long hours, and customers who are impossible to please.  I guess that I am beginning to see why some people are attracted to untraceable gold.

[Buck Wolter]

I didn't get to see the entire course...I was only there for a few days this Fall, rebuilding a bunch of tees on a hillside of a par 3 hole. You literally had to walk to the front of the tee to see the green before. Mike DeVries is consulting there, and drew up my marching orders to make a much more functional hole, tee space and visibility wise. We also re-routed the cart path to make it much safer than it was. It was the 17th hole.

That's interesting news about Mike consulting at King's Challenge -- I heard there was a change in ownership. When I saw your list I assumed you were invovled when the Palmer team built it.

Is 17 the hole that basically runs down the mountain?

Anyone heard if High Pointe will open this year?

[George Freeman]

Can you explain how a green is "built" without affecting the contours present on the land prior to building the green?

JC,

If an architect is fortunate enough to have a site where a green(or greens) are already perfectly in place, you still need to amend the soil with a growing medium suited to growing short grass and allowing the cup changing process to take place.....a sandy, screened soil of some sort is most commonly used. I imagine there's different methodologies used to maintain what's already existing on the ground, but a part of that equation is a skilled shaper with a good memory and the ability to move small quantities of dirt at a time. You essentially are creating a well, or bowl, to hold the new growing medium. There's drainage and irrigation, of course, but building on top of what's already there just requires patience and skill and memory.

Joe

Joe, you're a celebrity!

Regarding JC's question (which was a very good one I must add):  So does this mean that there are essentially ZERO greens out there that contain naturally occurring humps, bumps and rolls, except perhaps on a macro scale?  I know every green has something done to it during construction, even on the best of sites, but what I did not realize is that the entire piece of real estate soon to make up the green is taken away, and then replaced...When did this practice start?  This is the case at even the most natural of courses, ala Sand Hills, where all they did was "mow the grass"?  I assume this was not the case on the old links courses such as the Old Course, etc.

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment (from Joe or anyone else privy to this info).

George

[Joe Hancock]

George,

I don't know of any modern golf courses that had greens built without any soil modification whatsoever. That is not to say that it hasn't been done somewhere, I just don't know about it. To have a completely natural green, you'd have to be on a very clean sand and with minimal vegetation to eradicate before establishing the green with the proper turf. SandHills, Ballyneal, or maybe Bandon might have that kind of scenario, but I haven't been made aware of that kind of minimalism in modern construction.

Celebrity is a fickle thing. And lonely. (Thankfully I don't have to deal with that!)

 

[JC Jones]

I read something on Sand Hills recently (you know, day dreaming) and I got the impression that all they did was throw down some seed. 

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