Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Geoffrey Cornish stated that Banff, Cape Breton, Capilano and Jasper were widely considered four of the world's best in the early 40s.

So it is interesting to imagine that only a few years later he could have had five in the top 100.

Also interesting to see Banff and Jasper ahead of St. Georges, far from most currently held views.

Richelieu was always heralded by my grandfather, which leads me to believe that it must have been special. I wonder if Jeremy Glenn can tell us whether they had any of Strong's original material when Cooke began the renovation two years ago.

Excellent contribution Tom!

[Dan Kelly]

Dan,
The 480 acre property in Vernon Twp. was bordered by
Everett Rd on the North
Telegraph Rd on the East
Old Mill Rd on the South
I think the coach house exixts and is at 1221 Estate Lane
David Adler designed the house.  There were extensive gardens as well.  The Lake Forest Historical Society has been extremely helpful in obtaining materials relating to the property in general and the golf course in particular.
regards,
Wayne

Thanks. As I suspected! That's about two blocks from my in-laws' house, on Arcady Drive -- which may lie where the golf course lay. The coach house is there; so is the main house, I believe.

My mother-in-law is a pretty fanatical golfer. I wonder if she knows that she spends most of her life on the grounds of a formerly revered golf course. I doubt it.

[wsmorrison]

Dan,
Can you check for any vestiges of the course next time you're visiting the in-laws?  Maybe there are some signs left.  When I get home, I'll check the routing map and will email you some hole locations, that is if you're interested.
Wayne

[Dan Kelly]

Dan,
Can you check for any vestiges of the course next time you're visiting the in-laws?  Maybe there are some signs left.  When I get home, I'll check the routing map and will email you some hole locations, that is if you're interested.
Wayne

Sure -- though folks around there aren't likely to cotton to a guy wandering around their back yards looking for vestiges of a golf course!

But I'd love to see the routing -- if only so I could picture where the holes were.

[Paul_Turner]

Great stuff, good to see Sandwich where it should be!

The firm of Colt and Alison designed or redesigned 25 of this lot.  Nothing like voting for your own courses

Some of the names have been changed:

Zandvoort=Kennemer
Wildhoeve=Haagsche
Knocke=Zoute  Although I'm pretty sure this refers to the third course built (by C&A) there- destroyed in WW2.

I bet Simpson might have been the only one to have seen Ballybunion?

The Knoll makes it!

[ian]

Its interesting to see how good some of the lost courses were. Makes you sad to know whats lost. This may be a more interesting list to visit than some of the modern suggestions.

[Paul Richards]

Hey, no one answered my question about Lasker ...

[T_MacWood]

Laskers is no more. Wayne Morrison had a very interesting report on the course back on page 1.

I don't think Ponte Vedra was given extra credit because it was a posh resort. It was scheduled to host the 1939 Ryder Cup before it was cancelled. If I'm not mistaken it was also scheduled for a PGA that was cancelled. It was supposedly super hard. In the same magazine they rated the most difficult courses in the US (1938 ) and it was with Oakmont, PVGC and Pebble Beach at the top. In fact it was thought to be too difficult for the resort crowd and they had RTJ completely neuder it following WWII.

I believe Lido went under in the 40's. I don't think Timber Point was altered until the early 70's.  

I don't know if RTJ worked on Banff and Jasper Park - my guess is no. Why did Royal York change its name to St. George? It is the only course I know that lost the 'Royal ' label.

I have no idea who designed Foulpointe - my guess would be Simpson who seemed to have good French connections or the two architects active in South Africa...Hotchkin or Alison.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

You're a terrific researcher--great job.

Wayne;

Have you ever heard of Mill Road Farm G.C. referred to as Laskers? To us it was always just called Mill Road Farm right? That certainly is the name on Flynn's design plan and that's the way Bobby Jones referred to it, right? But being the private golf course of an individual I guess I can see some referring to it as Laskers.

[Brad Klein]

I'm quite certain that RTJ had nothing to do with either Banff or Jasper, Stanley Thompson having finished both of them by 1927. Jones' affiliation was a business partnership of convenience in the 1930s with very little direct collaboration on the same projects. RTJ kept NYS and the upper US for himself while Thompson kept Canada - not that there was much work to be had in the 1930s when they partnered.

Ben Dewar . . .

I was at Manoir Richelieu in Nov. 2000, just before Tom McBroom undertook his transformation of the site. By then, only half of the holes resembled Herbert Strong's original, quirky design, the others having been altered or in 3-4 cases, completely rerouted. The layout was 5,981 yards yards, heavy clay, overrun with Poa annua, the bunkers in sad shape, and the course impossibly cramped and overcrowded for modern play. One oddity is that they had palm trees for 150 yard markers. During winters, they brought the trees into the clubhouse and stored them there until spring! (I kid you not).

McBroom undertook a rather ambitious renovation involving, as I recall, a considerable reworking and expansion of the back nine. He was to restore the holes in character and bunker strategy, but not at all in terms of routing, as that would have been unworkable owing to subsequent changes in the site, maintenance building, etc.

[ForkaB]

Tom MacW

Thanks for the thoughts on Ponte Vedra.  Are you aware of any routing/topo of what it was like in 1939?  Knowing the current routing, shape and the land as I do, it's difficult to conceive of a mega-hard course existing there previously.  Also, any chance of posting that 1938 article about the "most difficult" courses to which you refer?

Rich

[Paul Richards]

Wayne and Tom:

My bad.  Thanks for answering about Laskers course.

[BCrosby]

Having played Ponte Vedra hundreds of times, I am also very curious about the original course. I had been under the impression that RTJ's changes in the 1950's had not been that extensive .

Let us know if you find anything about the pre-Jones course. Or even if you have some leads. I'll be down there next month. I would be happy to snoop around.

Bob

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

You are right.  We've never seen the course referred to as Laskers.  The scorecard, routing map, and other printed materials always referred to the course as Mill Road Farm.  Do you think that it was well-enough known to be referred to simply as Laskers?  I know some references were made in American Golfer and Golf Illustrated (all as MRF), but it doesn't seem that many had the opportunity to play it.  For it to have been rated so highly speaks well for the design and its challenge.  

[BCrosby]

A follow-up on Ponte Vedra.

There are lots of Golden Age courses RTJ was asked to toughen up. Afterall, he invented the Monster Course.

Ponte Vedra is the only Golden Age course I've heard of where RTJ was hired to take out some teeth.

Can anyone come up with other examples where RTJ was hired to tone down an older course?

For example, was he hired to soften up Sea Island in the 1950's? I'm thinking specifically of the old Seaside nine. Did he also make changes/soften up the old Plantation and Retreat nines there?

Curious Bob

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
Brad is right regarding RTJ, he also had nothing to do with Capilano or Cape Breton.

Royal York was built as the hotel course for the Canadian Pacific's Royal York. I cannot remember why the hotel gave up the course, but it was a long way from downtown, especially in 1929. The club became private and renamed, while the hotel is still one of Toronto's finest.

Brad,
Graham Cooke's firm is handling the restoration (I believe one of Cooke's assistants is doing it.) As I understand, they are in phase two of three, and will play 10 new holes this year and eight from the original course. The renovation has kept eighteen holes in play, while they work on the others. I am unsure whether the plan is to have 27 holes or not, I hope Jeremy sees this and clarifies.

[SPDB]

Tom/Wayne -

Note that The Country Club is referred to as Brookline. Granted that is a little more common, but indicates the interchangeability of club name and town name at some courses, of which I suspect Mill Road was one.

[T_MacWood]

Comparing an old map of the course to the aerial on TerraServer the routing is identical. The biggest difference is the bunkering. The greens were very well bunkered and the fairways featured some enormous irregular bunkers. I understand the remnants - in the form of mounds - are still around. Some of these bunkers were 150 to 200 yards long. I suspect these were the dunesy bunkers Strong created on several of his courses, with dune grass growing in them.

RTJ removed 4 dozen bunkers (many of the huge variety). The few pictures I've seen there were many very large mounds--not sure if they were altered. I also wonder if RTJ softened the greens. Strong could build some very wild greens. I recall reading a report from a writer who commented PVC was the first time he had ever hit a putt OB. RTJ also reduced the yardage significantly for 6800 to around 6500. I agree, PVC is the only course I can think of where RTJ was hired to ease the challenge.

When I get a chance I'll type up the 'The Hardest' article and ask Ran if he'll post it. Here's a short excerpt: "...In the East--The National Links at Southampton--Garden City on Long Island--Pine Valley in New Jersey and Oakmont in Pittsburgh. In the South--Ponte Vedra near Jacksonville. In the Far West--Pebble Beach at Del Monte....."

It sounds like the 'Royal' in Royal York was for the Hotel and not the golf course

[BCrosby]

Thanks Tom. Very interesting.

I'll see what I can find on the old Strong layout next month.

Ponte Vedra sounds like a "Lost Links" that ought to be in Wexler's next book.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Thanks Tom ( I assume you are talking about Ponte Vedra).

Even with enormous bunkers, I can't conceive of the course being that difficult.  My memories are that there are still a number of mounds, although describing them as "huge" is hyperbole (although it might not have been so in 1939).   Hopefully Bob Crosby, who has many more experiences there than I can comment.

[T_MacWood]

I'm not sure about the mounds...but some of the bunkers were huge.

[TEPaul]

"Sure -- though folks around there aren't likely to cotton to a guy wandering around their back yards looking for vestiges of a golf course!"

Dan Kelly (tm);

Then Chicagoans aren't anywhere near as friendly or understanding as New Yorkers. That New York truck driver seemed to understand when he walked into his bedroom with his naked wife in bed and me under his bed. I just told him I was about to excavate for that famous lost Channel hole green of the NLE Lido that I figured his bedroom was sitting directly on top of. He seemed fine with that but I didn't feel like sticking around to discuss architecture with him either and his wife didn't seem that interested in that at the time. But who knows, I might have done that too but at the time it appeared neither one of them knew any more about architecture than Rich Goodale--so I just left.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I was that New York truck driver.  I can't thank you enough for getting me out of my marriage to that hooker.  If she'd just learned how to stop pronating her left wrist, we might still be together.......

[George Pazin]

When I get a chance I'll type up the 'The Hardest' article and ask Ran if he'll post it. Here's a short excerpt: "...In the East--The National Links at Southampton--Garden City on Long Island....."

Interesting that these two get mentions and Shinnecock doesn't. Maybe pre-techology Shinnecock & the National were on more equal footing difficulty-wise.

[Nigel_Walton]

Turnberry was destroyed in the second world war by the armed forces and rebuilt. Who built the course that was ranked 97th?