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Joe Bentham

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Blind second shots on par 4's...
« on: December 01, 2009, 02:26:07 AM »
How do you feel about them?  What are some examples that work?  What are some examples that don't?  What are some examples, period?

Alex Miller

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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 06:41:52 AM »
I've come across a few in my travels....and dont mind the following for starters:

Wollongong 2nd
Kingston Heath 17th
Rye 13th
NSW 4th and 15th
Fishers Island 4th
Prestwick 17th

Some of the above have varying levels of "blindness" depending on how far you hit it  ;D



Scott Warren

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 06:50:16 AM »
3 at Deal from the members' tees (it's a par 5 from championship tees)
15 at Deal
17 at Deal

14 at North Berwick

13 at Royal Zoute

12 at Co. Louth

5 at Royal St George's (depending on angle?)

Anthony Gray

Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 09:41:35 AM »



  I would say the classic examples are Alps. One of trhe best is the above mentioned 17 at North Berwick. It is probably the strongest hole on the course but often gets overlooked.

  Anthony


Bill_McBride

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 09:43:13 AM »
Joe, #4 Bandon Trails for short hitters like moi.   ;D

JESII

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 09:47:31 AM »
Joe,

#13 at Royal County Down - gives you some room to miss the green short and right - not a bad idea.
#8 at Royal New Kent - let's you see a bit of the green if you lay back off the tee into a very narrow spit - otherwise you can drive it into a wide open fairway and have to hit it over a 30 foot tall mound with no indicators.

mike_malone

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 10:22:56 AM »
 #2 at Torresdale Frankford is wonderful. It has a front to back slope as well. It is a great routing decision since it sits between two elevated greens at #1 and #3. I also think they should recover #8 to being a blind approach with water behind the green. How often do you see that?
AKA Mayday

Eric Smith

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 10:25:02 AM »
Joe, the 2nd at Heathland in Myrtle Beach comes to mind, but as Tom Doak once pointed out on here, you can see some of the green if you play your drive down the left hand side.  All my times there I just never got over to that side of the fairway to see it.  I love the hole and the blind approach makes for a fun experience.

Phil McDade

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 10:32:20 AM »
Joe:

I played several courses this past year with interesting par 4s featuring blind or semi-blind second shots. I can't get enough of blind shots; I think they level out the disparity in playing ability between the low- and high-handicapper. They add an element of uncertainty to a game that, in its origins, depended on uncertain and unpredictable outcomes for much of its challenge. (Also, see my post on Jordan Wall's year-end favorite photos thread for the blind shot of all blind shots...)

Flossmoor, a Tweedie on the south side of Chicago (next door to Olympia Fields), has a very good medium-length par 4 with a likely blind second for most players. Here's the tee shot (417 yds from the tips, 400 from the whites); it's a straightaway tee shot over a creek. The tee shot must be 250+ yards to carry the ridge in the distance.




Here's the shot from the base of the ridge line.




This is the view from 150 yards, a typical-length approach shot for a medium-length par 4. Although totally blind, there is an aiming post visible from the fairway somewhere in the forest of trees.




What makes this solid hole all the better is the tiny, bunkerless, fallaway green (maybe 3,000 square feet?) that awaits the player's second shot. The too-bold shot risks bounding toward the course boundary, only a few paces beyond the back edge of the green.



At the Ross-redesigned Beverly CC in Chicago, the 8th hole has elements of blindness with the second shot. The tee shot on this medium-length par 4 (424 yds tips; 403 whites) is toward a series of fairway bunkers, including a center-line bunker that will gobble up the too-bold shot:



The player who takes something less than driver off the tee may be left with a shot like this from the middle of the fairway -- much of the green is visible, but the pin is cleverly tucked behind a bunker that hides a good portion of the green. (Notice the white ball very close to the centerline bunker, middle of photo -- that approach is obviously less blind than one farther back, but the player is appropriately rewarded for coming that close to what is a penal bunker.) From the farther-back position, this is a very awkward shot, because the player can't see how deep the green is behind the pin (as opposed to right of the pin), nor what lies to the left of the pin.



The enormous size of the green -- 65 yards deep -- allows for a great variety of pin positions, and the fairway bunkering hides some of them.



A nine-hole Bendelow I discovered this past summer called Country Club Estates near Lake Geneva WI has several par 4s with the possibility of a blind second shot. It's a short, sporty course with some nice design elements and a very good routing, largely untouched since Bendelow laid it out in the 1920s.

The first hole tee shot rises to a crest with the green unseen, unusual for a hole of only 300 yards.




Here's the view from about 125 yards away; the green is tucked over to the right.




Here's the full view of the green; you have to drive to the very top of the hill to see it:



The green sits in a natural amphitheatre.




The 3rd hole, 350 yards, is a slight dogleg left in which the drive must carry close to 250 yards uphill to avoid a blind second shot. Here's the tee shot.




Here's the second from 150 yards; a marker pole (visible on the rough/fairway line on the left) guides the player to the green.




The green is small, surrounded by bunkering, with trouble lurking all around in the form of steep falloffs left and rear.




The 5th hole -- 336 yards, but also uphill -- features a neat terraced fairway.




From about 130 yards away (200+ yard drive), the green is still hidden; only from about 75 yards away can the green be fully seen. The green is slightly to the left of the two large trees middle of photo:



Here's the green:




The 7th hole is the best one on the course, a dogleg right of 423 yards with a wonderfully rumpled fairway. Heres' the tee shot:




Another view of the fairway:




Here's the second shot from just in front of the 150-yard post, which sits at the bottom of a depressen. The green is to the left of the V-shaped tree; the flag is visible, but hardly any of the green. A terrific hole in which not every second shot will be blind into the green, but there is a strong possibility of one.



Finally, an old James Foulis near the Wisconsin-Illinois border called Nippersink GC has a very solid closing 18th hole (415 yds) with a likely blind second. Here's the tee shot of this hole that doglegs sharply right:



From just in front of the 200-yard marker, the green is unseen.



From the bottom of a depression in the fairway, nearing the 150-yard marker, an aiming pole right helps guide the golfer in the right direction. In addition to the blindness of the second shot, the golfer is unlikely to have an even lie, making this shot all the more demanding.



Here's the green, one of the smallest on the course:









Michael J. Moss

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 11:31:41 AM »
Sunningdale Country Club (Scarsdale, NY) tasked Mike DeVries to reestablish an "Alps" hole green last autumn. It was our thought that adding blindness (quirk) to a hole - and in this case about 96 additional yards - was appropriate even though our membership way back in time (sometime before 1926) thought just the opposite: that a blind green was a deficiency. It makes you wonder how many Raynor Alps holes were dismantled by other enlightened club leaderships. Hiring Seth Raynor was an inspired decision, but their actions suggest our membership was somehow not aware of Macdonald's greatest holes concept. By choice, the Alps green was decommissioned!

Today, our 6th green is "mostly" blind to the golfer. By that I mean truck loads of fill were brought in to build up the green platform, and now the flagstick is visible from what our golfing cognoscenti refer to as "Hancock Ridge," named after Mike's partner in crime, Joe Hancock. He built the damn thing and it looks like it's been there forever.

Bottom line: we added about 100 yards to a hole from the back tee - truth told, Mike also built two more forward tees so now it's fun for everyone - we burried the green out of view to most golfers, and the membership has totally embraced the changes. I think that's remakable.

A view from the elevated back tee, which shows how the fairway rises. You can see the top of the flag as well. 7th tee is to the left.

Joe Bentham

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 02:22:34 PM »
Joe, #4 Bandon Trails for short hitters like moi.   ;D

Bill

If anything I see #4 at Bandon Trails as a hole that uses a blind second shot as a penalty for not hitting the right line off the tee...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:06:41 PM by Joe Bentham »

Giles Payne

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 02:33:15 PM »
The 2nd at Littlestone is blind unless you drive long and tight to the bunkers on the right of the fairway.

Jason Topp

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 04:56:01 PM »
The course I played as a kid was very hilly.  On 6 of the holes, a well placed drive yields a level lie and a visible approach.  A missed drive leaves a blind approach.  When I return as an adult, I am always struck by well the "penalty" of a blind approach from a (usually) uphill lie leads to interesting golf.  It places a premium on accuracy off the tee and enjoyable recovery shots if you fail.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 05:31:30 PM »
The fifteenth hole at Roanoke Country Club (6 Dogwood) is a fantastic par four with an utterly blind approach.  From a well-struck drive, the player must often walk forty yards or more (towards the tee) to even see the top of the flagstick.  There are a few tall trees 20+ yards behind the green, but they aren't as much help as one would think.  I've played the hole 150+ times and am still challenged to pick the right line.

Curiously, on the same hole, the landing area is blind from the tee, so a tee shot isn't seen at any point on the ground.

Add to this that the hole plays in the 420+ish range (well past its scorecard length) and a player has quite a challenge on his hands late in the round.

Years ago, Lester George reworked at least the green complex on this hole.  Perhaps he'll have something to add.

WW

PS Cascades #9 has a blind approach, though the target placed high in the backdrop trees lowers it on my list of holes worth mentioning.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 05:50:07 PM »
Joe, #4 Bandon Trails for short hitters like moi.   ;D

Bill

If anything I see #4 at Bandon Trails as a hole that uses a blind second shot as a penalty for not hitting the right line off the tee...

As I recall I hit my tee ball farther left than advised by my caddy, and had about a 4 iron in.  This was from the #2 tees.  Dead blind shot that I missed just left of the green.

mike_malone

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 05:53:18 PM »
 Reading your title again I realize I have had many blind second shots on par fours that weren't part of the design ;D
AKA Mayday

Joe Bentham

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 08:34:41 PM »
Joe, #4 Bandon Trails for short hitters like moi.   ;D

Bill

If anything I see #4 at Bandon Trails as a hole that uses a blind second shot as a penalty for not hitting the right line off the tee...

As I recall I hit my tee ball farther left than advised by my caddy, and had about a 4 iron in.  This was from the #2 tees.  Dead blind shot that I missed just left of the green.

I think you meant right instead of left.
One of the cool things about the tee shot there is watching first time players assume its a dogleg right.  I also enjoy first time players saying 'good ball' to the tee shot hit to far right. 
But like I said, I think its an example of a hole that uses a blind shot as a penalty for a misplaced tee ball.

Joe Bentham

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 08:39:55 PM »
is there an accepted length for second shots on alps holes?

George_Bahto

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 08:50:27 PM »
Joe, all Alps holes built by Macdonald and his two cohorts were blind seconds.

In general, about their Alps holes, the were one of the long par 4s on their courses and required long second shots, usually very long second shots

average length in today's world?  a good length would be 440+ .... perhaps 425-yards when they were built in the 'teens and 'twenties

often (on their courses) clubs looking to lengthen their courses for "scorecard yardage" moved Alps tees back leaving them a short iron in to the Alps/punchbowl green  .............  obviously wrong

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Greg Ohlendorf

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 10:04:14 PM »
The 5th at Long Cove Club on Hilton Head, 317 from the tips and 305 from the members tee, leaves players with an absolutely blind second shot. It combines a short par four with the blind element. Pretty interesting.

Greg

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 10:16:44 PM »
Joe, all Alps holes built by Macdonald and his two cohorts were blind seconds.

In general, about their Alps holes, the were one of the long par 4s on their courses and required long second shots, usually very long second shots

average length in today's world?  a good length would be 440+ .... perhaps 425-yards when they were built in the 'teens and 'twenties

often (on their courses) clubs looking to lengthen their courses for "scorecard yardage" moved Alps tees back leaving them a short iron in to the Alps/punchbowl green  .............  obviously wrong



George,

Aren't "Punchbowl" holes typically blind on the approach ?

Obviously # 16 at NGLA comes to mind, but, I don't recall many others where they putting surface was entirely visible, if visible at all.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 11:31:21 PM »
Joe, It's only a penalty if the golfer expects, and needs, a view. To me, It's More like  a reward for placing one's ball in the ideal spot. Many blind shots can get a sportsman's juices flowing and often result in great results. So, it really depends on the outlook and attitude of the player. Closely related to the quality of the looper, too. ;)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Joe Bentham

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2009, 02:16:24 AM »
Joe, It's only a penalty if the golfer expects, and needs, a view. To me, It's More like  a reward for placing one's ball in the ideal spot. Many blind shots can get a sportsman's juices flowing and often result in great results. So, it really depends on the outlook and attitude of the player. Closely related to the quality of the looper, too. ;)
Its a penalty if there is a place to hit your tee shot that allows you to see the green.
 

Adam Clayman

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Re: Blind second shots on par 4's...
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 09:21:18 AM »
Joe,  My point was that it is not a penalty as much as it is not getting a reward.
 Looking on it as penalty, goes to the heart of the sportsmen, or lack there of.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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