[Jim Colton]

Who owns that land on the other side of the river?  Looks spectacular!

[RJ_Daley]

I have walked the property as well.  As for the trees, a canyon or rim routing, whether it was Gil and Geoff's original, or Graham's have that distinguishing feature of some pine trees as you approach the rim.  So, it is that which makes it different than the endless sand hill treeless offerings both on the Lehman course and the other sand hill courses of the region.  That one person might denote that the trees are 'in the way' based on a photo, seems like a stretch, given the designer is a world class golfer, highly familiar with great dunes or links style golf around the world, and isn't exactly a novice to shot values, quality, and the notion of a fair and playable hole for all skill levels of golfers.  Maybe, if the tree is within the realm of 'in the way' it was decided to go with it as strategic value, and what is the worse thing that could happen if it is not received well after a significant amount of play.... they chop it down?

The one thing I would question in routing courses across this land is the desire to keep it walkable.   I have no idea if they made a judgement on routing that traded off finding what they believed were the best hole corridors for the consideration of keeping tees next to greens.  While by comparison Graham Marsh's routing at Sutton Bay seems to follow that principle of getting to the best hole corridors as priority to keeping the routing a little more walkable, the land at Sutton Bay has more physical restrictions where that was necessary.  Frankly, the varied and frequency of land rumple at Prairie Club would suggest to me, that walkability should not be sacrificed, nor need it to get to great hole corridors.  But, in fact they may have kept it very walkable.  One would have to play there, obviously, to make that determination.

But, it is a golf culture thing too, along with a cart revenue issue, I guess.  We have avid walkers here on GCA.com, but it seems like even the folks you'd think are raw boned, tough outdoorsman and such in the Sand Hills, and Nebraska in general, seem to put a great deal of stock in cart ball, and even owning or leasing your own cart at your club, despite having a perfectly walkable course like I have seen so often at Wild Horse.  South Dakotans and northern Nebraskans may be the same way... 

[David Kelly]

Someone I know who has been there and whose opinion I trust has said that the Marsh course is walkable and that nobody is going to walk the Lehman. That's disappointing to me especially after looking at the aerials.

[Rob Rigg]

Someone I know who has been there and whose opinion I trust has said that the Marsh course is walkable and that nobody is going to walk the Lehman. That's disappointing to me especially after looking at the aerials.

David,

I have heard that as well - although I did contact the club and they told me that both courses were walkable with short green to tee transfers and paths where necessary. It really would be a shame if the Lehman course was not walkable. "Pure Golf" as discussed in their literature should certainly include walking as at least an option.

With such a spectacular site I am sure there will be MUCH debate about how the architects did and what others who "specialize" in that genre could/would/may have done.

[Tony Weiler]

I would be interested in a meetup there, and Sutton Bay is on my way!!  I would love to play that again.   

[JC Urbina]

I have been on the site recently and thought it looked pretty cool.  Didn't have time to look over the whole place but would like to play both of them.

[Adam Clayman]

The Marsh course has back tees that have Pine scrub carries they are calling a "Pine Valley Look". Similar to the fourth at World Woods. Also, many of the back tees have goal post trees framing and squeezing the opening. Ala 15 at Prairie Dunes.

I'll Speculate that the Bunkers Tom mentions on #7(?) are primary for framing/aiming telling the first time player where to avoid. That one pinch point is cool. There's a Par 3, mid round, that plays towards the canyon that looked absolutely fun to play and pretty natural. Whether it is natural only their hairdresser knows for sure.

David,
I suspect both courses are walkable.  Because of the scale of the Lehman course, along with some of the steep fairway cants, my guess it's a tough walk, but surely not unwalkable.

[RJ_Daley]

Adam, from your observations, did you see places where they had to "melt down" some of the more severe sand hill features, like the Rennie team says they had to do in places at Ballyneal?  In deed, only their hairdresser knows for sure, where those 'melt-downs' are.  This really also ties into Joe's thread on rumpled fairways. 

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:

From what I saw of the Valentine site, they should not have had to "melt down" many of the features, because there was less elevation change overall.

Rob R:

There should be no speculation about what Bill Coore or I or any other architect would have done.  The judgment on Valentine should be much more simple.  It was a great site, and if they haven't built at least one of the 50 best courses in the world on that site, they should have [even though it is never so easy].  And if they succeeded, hats off to them.

[Adam Clayman]

Dick, There was nothing obvious. On the Lehman course there was some serious cut and filling, but even that was not easily detectable.

As long as the greens remain at a reasonable speed and they do not crowd the place with rough lines, it should be a winner.

Honestly, The place looks like it has the right attitude and pricing. Give me some quality food (Huckaby's good soup theory) and I'd be happy.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tom Doak and Jeff Mingay,

Are you sure you guys walked this property? Because about 99% of the Marsh course occupies land that Cleve Trimble did not own. Or did you make subsequent visits since that property was acquired by Paul Schock?

[Tom_Doak]

Geoff:

No, I am not sure at all, since I haven't been back to Valentine in years.  I just assumed it was the same ground along the canyon rim that we walked.

Is it different in character than the part we all walked several years ago?  Better, or not as good?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Echo Tom Doak. I simply presumed the holes in the photos posted here are laid out amongst the treed area along the canyon rim that we walked.

Interesting...

[Carl Nichols]

The judgment on Valentine should be much more simple.  It was a great site, and if they haven't built at least one of the 50 best courses in the world on that site, they should have [even though it is never so easy].  And if they succeeded, hats off to them.

Does that mean that both courses should be in the top 50, since they're building two courses?  Or are the two courses on very different pieces of property? 

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

Apparently, based on what Geoff said, I can't tell you the answer to that.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

Apparently, based on what Geoff said, I can't tell you the answer to that.

Yes, hadn't gotten to Geoff's post when I wrote mine ..... although it does seem odd that they would build on a worse site than the one they already had. 

[Brad Wilbur]

An additional way to Prairie Club would be to fly Allegiant Airlines directly from Las Vegas, or Mesa, Arizona to Grand Island, and take about a 3 hr drive.  They fly to smaller airports, and use Las Vegas  Orlando and Mesa  as hubs.  The Orlando hub doesn't seem to have a Grand Island connection at this time.

Combining a Husker game and being PC seems like a good combo,

[RJ_Daley]

Geoff, if you are looking in... or Mark, whoever can answer... does any of Marsh's design traverse the same land along the rim that the original did?  Or, is it north or south of that section along that rim?  I thought in looking at Lehman's routing and hole photos that at least one specificly amazing greensite that Gill and Geoff had identified was in the Lehman plan.  The photos look like the Marsh routing is upside the same land as Gil's route, but maybe not...

[Jim Nugent]

I just assumed it was the same ground along the canyon rim that we walked.

I thought one of the principals told us a while back that the Lehman course does not use much of the canyon rim, if any. 

[Adam Clayman]

Dick, Pretty safe to say no to your question about same ground being used. On an earlier thread Geoff mentioned that as well as the fact that one if their original greens is part of the H-O-R-S-E.  As best as I can figure the Marsh course is south and west of the original GiGe design.

Jim is correct that the Lehman course is not near the canyon.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

The Marsh course occupies land south of the Trimble property that is much different than the original property in terms of ground features and elevation change. It's still quite special but the soil is not nearly as sandy.  You also don't get some of the dramatic carries over the canyons, dramatic views and terrain on the original site. The Marsh Course property also had more pines in the areas along the canyon edge.

The HORSE Course occupies part of the 18th hole of the course we routed to finish at the clubhouse site that ultimately was retained.

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