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Matt Bosela

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Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour (w/2010 Update)
« on: November 30, 2009, 01:21:07 AM »
I spent about a week in beautiful British Columbia in August, first in Victoria, where I had the chance to play both Royal Colwood and Bear Mountain (Mountain Course).  We then flew into Kelowna and bunkered down in Vernon.  While there, I was supposed to play Predator Ridge (got rained out), the truly exquisite Sagebrush (already recapped in this thread on GCA), and Tobiano, which was named Best New Course in Canada for 2008 by both ScoreGolf and Golf Digest.

I was still on quite the high after playing Sagebrush the day before but was suitably excited to be playing Tobiano as well.  Like Sagebrush, Tobiano was built on a former ranch site and offers unbelievable panoramas of the mountains and the pristine Lake Kamloops.  The land is quite severe and I can only imagine how difficult it was to come up with a proper routing, as the player is forced to play from one finger of land to another throughout the round.

It's a completely different playing experience versus the more cerebral Sagebrush, where the ground game was a huge factor.  At Tobiano, you're playing much more "target golf".

Note: All Yardages from the Back Tee Deck, which measure out to 7367 Yards.  The course plays considerably shorter than that, however, due to the elevation and the routing also provides more than a fair share of downhill tee shots.

Hole #1 - 576 Yards Par 5

Tee Shot



The tee shot is downhill and can be played right of the fairway bunker in the distance.  Everything here slopes heavily to the left, especially on the layup shot, where it's almost impossible to keep the ball in the fairway.  I can't imagine how much play the left rough gets around the 150 marker here.  The approach shot is uphill to one of McBroom's so-called "infinity greens", as you can't see the putting surface until you're about 100 yards away.  There's a lot of room off the tee but it's a pretty severe opener and requires a decent strike just to reach the short grass off the tee, something that's all to prevalent out here.

Hole #2 - 350 Yards Par 4

Approach Shot



The shortest par four on the golf course and driveable from the other tee decks.  It's a semi-blind tee shot that accepts a fade off the tee around a bunker on the inside of the dogleg right.  A perfect drive will give you a wedge into a pushed up green shaped like the top of a cowboy hat.  A definite birdie hole but three putts are likely commonplace.

Hole #3 - 162 Yards Par 3

Tee Shot



A short to medium length par three in a lovely setting.  This is no pushover though and misses will be punished as I found out after hitting what I thought was a perfect tee shot that ended up going long.  The green is pretty shallow and multi-tiered.  Wind is a huge factor at Tobiano and it really can cause fits on holes like this one.

Hole #4 - 510 Yards Par 4

Approach Shot



Pretty non-descript tee shot, relatively speaking, on the very long dogleg left par four.  Lots of little swales and hollows to deal with on the fairway here and you can hit a running shot in for your second, likely with a fairway metal or long iron, to a large green.  One of the least interesting holes on the course.

Hole #5 - 480 Yards Par 4

Tee Shot



So we go from one of the more boring holes on the course to perhaps the most thrilling.  This par four looks like you're playing on a half-pipe, as huge mounds of land frame both sides of the fairway all the way down to the green.  The hole plays considerably downhill the whole way and a big fade is the desired flight off the tee.

Approach Shot


Your approach shot will likely be from about 200 yards but won't play nearly that long.  However, you need to avoid a deep bunker in the front left and a right to left flight will likely be best.  This hole is simply a joy to play.

Hole #6 - 462 Yards Par 4

Tee Shot



I know that many here will wonder how walkable this golf course is.  Up until this point, the transitions from green to tee have been quite short and manageable but you have a very winding walk/drive from the fifth green to the sixth tee and an even longer transition to the sixth fairway.  The tee shot is up on a finger of land well above the fifth green and you have to carry over about 150 yards of brush to reach the fairway.  This is a fun tee shot to hit: well defined target and slightly downhill, with a right to left flight the most desired.

Approach Shot


The approach shot is considerably uphill to another of McBroom's infinity greens, with the mountains and Lake Kamloops looming ominously in the background.  My approach came up short and I would imagine this happens quite often on this intimidating shot!  There is a bunker short right of the green that can't be seen from down below and the green is very large and slopes sharply from back to front and from right to left.  Very good golf hole.

Hole #7 - 197 Yards Par 3

Tee Shot



When I said that this course has a lot of 'target golf', one look at this tee shot proves my point.  I couldn't help but laugh when first seeing what we faced here - the tee shot is all carry over a 100 foot deep depression area and the green is almost unfairly shallow for the iron (or wood) you need for the shot at 29 yards deep.  

View of the back of the green from the 8th Tee


There is a tremendous amount of room left and right - this green has to be well over 100 feet wide but there is almost no room for error in length.  I think this hole is a bit too penal for the beginner (and there are A LOT of beginners out at Tobiano...more on that later) - we had a pretty decent lady playing with us and she played the front tees.  She still had 110 yards from there, all carry and that is an awful lot to ask for your front tee deck.  Granted, the drop zone is on the other side of the chasm but this hole definitely doesn't help the pace of play out here (and more on that later too).  Super tough par three even for the most accomplished players.

Hole #8 - 589 Yards Par 5

Tee Shot



And you thought the last tee shot was tough!!!  Check out this bad boy!  From the back tee, it's a 225 yard carry to reach the fairway.  FROM THE BLUES (regular mens tee, total yardage of about 6100 yards), it's a 179 yard carry.  I think that's pretty ridiculous and wonder if it's maybe lazy architecture to not find a tee block that doesn't have a carry that long.  Only the front tee deck is on the other side of the chasm but that turns it into a 412 yard hole.

View from the Fairway, About 250 Yards Out


Same view, just showing the Lake a bit more


Even the layup here is no bargain, as the fairway cants severely to the right toward another bluff well above the Lake.  The third is likely a mid iron hit downhill into a green that moves diagonally from front left to back right.

View from behind green looking back up to fairway


Simply put, this is one of the more penal par fives I've ever encountered.

Hole #9 - 418 Yards Par 4

View from green looking back toward tee



If you're hoping for a bit of a breather after this four or five hole stretch, you're not really finding it here.  The tee shot on this midlength par four is downhill to a very wide landing area but the approach shot is drastically uphill to a green protected by deep bunkers in front and on the left.  The green itself is multi-tiered and closes a very tough stretch of holes to end the outgoing nine.

I'll be back tomorrow with the last nine holes.  I'm interested to hear opinions on this amazingly beautiful but unrelenting test of golf - has anyone played here?  What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 10:17:47 AM by Matt Bosela »

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 11:17:28 AM »
Matt,

Excellent pictures, and a very stunning site. I do imagine there were some difficult spots in the routing process.

I have never played there, however I know people who have, and while beautiful, it is also a very windy location, which can make some of the carries you described all the more difficult. The tee shot on the par-3 7th does look extremely difficult given the length of the hole, and the shallowness of the green. On a relatively calm day, I don't think it is asking too much from somebody playing 7367 yard tees, but again, in the wind, and with no room to bail out....perhaps playing from the next set on those days might help pace of play. You mentioned a 225 & 179-yard carry on the next hole, on what line? It does appear that the chasm to be carried is on a mild diagonal line, allowing people to take on a shorter carry to the left should they be playing into the wind.

TK

Dale Jackson

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 12:37:22 PM »
Tobiano is one of the most spectacular settings for a golf course you will come across, stunning vistas and right on the lake.  If anyone is going to Kamloops to golf the course should be included.  Is it a good golf course?  In my view definitely not, and some of Matt's pictures show why. 

To my mind a golf course needs to be playable by all and challenging to the best level of player  Tobiano spectacularly fails on the playability factor.  There are difficult to impossible forced carries, as Matt shows in his pictures of  #6, 7, 8 and 9, and shots that miss by a small margin will likely be lost down the drop offs on some holes.   I am about a 5 handicap and the day I played there I was with two players of similar ability.  We all agreed #7 green was impossible to hold, not hard but impossible.  The penalty for not holding the green is a lost ball or a shot out of one of the bunkers that sit way below the green.  And this was after we had moved up one set of tees to 6,600 yards.

There are some very good holes that offer strategy and options but they do not make up for the failed holes.

It is a very windy site and if you catch it on a calm day, it would be more manageable but still very difficult.

The shortest set of tees is 5,350 yards, and at that length, higher handicappers may not finish under the rules of golf.

I was not surprised when it won Best New Canadian from Golf Digest, it is very spectacular.  But it did not get there from the evaluation I put in!
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 01:04:04 PM »
Indeed. Tobiano occupies a stunningly beautiful property, featuring some incomparable long views across old ranch lands and Kamloops Lake.

However, Matt's photo of the approach to #8 green illustrates what the site will soon become. A large scale housing development is planned to surround the course. Unfortunately, Tobiano will look completely different when an abundance of homes are built out. 

I've played Tobiano 2 or 3 times, and agree with Matt and Dale. It's a very stern test of golf.
jeffmingay.com

Philippe Binette

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 01:39:30 PM »
Those houses looks like landslide potential to me  :o...

I hope the rough is getting thinner... if not the course is not fun for the average player on a windy day


Matt Bosela

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 01:39:48 PM »
Tyler:

The 179 yard carry would be to the fairway about 20 yards left of the fairway bunker.  You are correct in guessing that there is a bit more leeway the further left you go but it would still be about a 150 yard carry even from the men's front tees.

Dale and Jeff:

It looks like we share similar thoughts about the course being much too difficult for the novice and even the intermediate player.  Pace of play was a huge problem (again, I'll elaborate further when I finish the back nine) and the lack of playability for all handicap levels looks to be the problem.

And Jeff is right about the housing component of the facility - houses are popping up quickly and with empty lot sites lining every fairway, the best part of Tobiano, the views, will soon be compromised.

Will MacEwen

Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 03:25:02 PM »
Dale Jackson's opinion is pretty much what I have heard from everyone who has played it. 

As for winning a best new course award, I find course reviews from the Canadian media too be far too soft.  Some absolute crap has been constructed and nobody really calls it out.

Randy Thompson

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 03:30:48 PM »
Looks good to me, anybody have any idea how many HA of irrgated and maintained turf there are, seem to me less then 15. Looks like it could wear you out if your not hitting straight, are the high handicappers enjoying it as much as the low.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 03:35:18 PM »

As for winning a best new course award, I find course reviews from the Canadian media too be far too soft.  Some absolute crap has been constructed and nobody really calls it out.


Will,

Robert Thompson calls it out. But, you're right: Rob's alone amongst Canadian golf writers.
jeffmingay.com

Ryan Admussen

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 03:46:50 PM »
How does it compare with all the other "Cart only" courses in the Okanagan? would it be at the top?

Robert Thompson

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 04:26:16 PM »
Dale and co: I liked Tobiano and didn't find it too hard either time I played it. I think seven can be tough if playing from the back tees, but I doubt there's much play from there. I played it from 205 each time and found the green three times out of four. Usually plays into the prevailing wind -- but it isn't any more difficult than the 16th at Beacon Hall, which is equally praised.

Is it tough? Yes.  Are the forced carries too much if you're playing from 6600 yards? Hardly. I don't recall one my friend Andy had a problem with and he's not a big hitter and we were playign from the next-to-back deck. Is Sagebrush more interesting? Yep. But those greens aren't easy either.

Penguin: Rough was much thinner when I was there last. I owe you an email exchange on this one, don't I?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Dale Jackson

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 04:37:32 PM »
Robert, I think the difference in opinions is, in part, based on the weather we experienced.  I played in a 2 club wind and 7 was a quartering downwind.  It was literally impossible to hold the green, I hit what I thought was a perfect shot, landed near the front and ended up off the right backside. 

We also played with my wife, who is a solid 15 handicap and she could not deal with the course as presented.  She played from the approx. 6,000 yards tees.

I would like to play it with a gentle breeze, I might modify my opinions a little but only a little I suspect.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Bob Jenkins

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 06:51:20 PM »

I agree that the views, the eye candy and setting at Tobiano are fabulous, but also agree with Dale that in many ways the course is almost unplayable for most golfers, especially if the wind is blowing and from what I have heard, there is a major wind, 2-3 clubs, almost every day. I am a 12 handicap and sometimes get below that for a while.

I have played the course once. My tee shot on 1 took a slight draw, landed in the middle of the fairway and after about 4 bounces, barely trickled into the 6 inch rough and was never seen again. On the par 3 7th, playing the next to longest tees into the wind, I stood there for some time trying to figure out what to hit and then I seem to recall pulling out a 5 or 6 iron, hitting it well, and watching it fly the green. No chance for recovery as I found the ball 30' down in the rocks. Same if you are short. No recovery possible. Forced carries continued, the wind kept blowing, and in the end, it was just no FUN at all. One hold I did like was the par 4 5th, downhill into a ravine. I hated that day out there. I cannot see how they will continue to sell retirement homes in that location as I cannot imagine most retired people enjoying the golf out there. The views? Yes. But not the golf.

The topography at Tobiano appears to be much the same as at Kidnappers, at least from the pics I have seen of Kidnappers, and I also seem to recall Tom D. talking about the difficulties of routing on similar land. I saw Kidnappers on TV a few weeks ago and it is not nearly as severe as Tobiano. Also the bridges at Kidnappers certainly made it more walkable.

In conclusion, Tobiano is beautiful but no fun. Sagebrush can be windy too and has similar views of a lake etc. but Sagebrush is one heck of a lot of fun.

Bob J

Philippe Binette

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 07:34:35 PM »
Yes Robert, you owe me an email on Tobiano...
Hell, it might end up being an entire book... The Writer and the Penguin: a debate on golf architecture

especially since I don't know if I'm going to make it out on december 11th... I'm afraid of hitting a tree while driving  >:( ;D

Robert Thompson

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 07:52:59 PM »
Penguin -- that would be a great book -- bestseller I'd think.

As for the notion that Tobiano is too hard, I'm frankly surprised. I thought it was easier the second time round, and I bet I'm not nearly the player Dale is.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Michael Huber

Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2009, 09:59:00 PM »
I'll be damned if I ever end up in Kamloops, British Colombia

But I really didn't expect the geography of the area to look like that at all. 

This is a good thread and really the kind of thread that makes this site valuable.

Thanks to all.

Alex Miller

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2009, 10:08:46 PM »
Back 9 please! :D

Matt Bosela

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2009, 10:37:15 PM »
Back 9 please! :D

Working on it now! :)  Great to see all the discussion!

Michael Dugger

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2009, 10:47:22 PM »
Would Tobiano and Wolf Creek, NV fall in the same category???

Incredible land, incredible views.....but a very penal golf course?
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Dale Jackson

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2009, 11:26:14 PM »
Would Tobiano and Wolf Creek, NV fall in the same category???

Incredible land, incredible views.....but a very penal golf course?

Interesting.  I actually had written that in my first post on this thread and then deleted it.  They do have similar feels, the topography is different but the courses do share a certain je ne sais quo.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Alex Miller

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2009, 11:36:09 PM »
I've played Wolf Creek, not tobiano. I think Tobiano looks much more appealing from these pics. The elevation change doesn't seem quite as severe as Wolf Creek and the course less quirky.

Matt Bosela

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 12:06:23 AM »
Hole #10 - 558 Yards Par 5

Tee Shot



The course lets up a bit as you start the back nine.  This gently uphill par five snakes left and right and back again right up until the green.  Lots of room off the tee here - this is a definite birdie hole.

Hole #11 - 420 Yard Par 4

Tee Shot



Aesthetically one of the prettier holes on the golf course and it plays just as well as it looks.  Very wide driving corridor here but you can challenge the bunkers on the inner portion of the dogleg to shorten your approach, which is uphill to a very wide and undulating green protected by deep bunkers in front.

Approach Shot


Don't miss it in the fairway bunkers right, as I did.  They are incredibly deep and getting to the green, even from less than 150 yards, is no bargain.

Hole #12 - 240 Yards Par 3

Tee Shot



Very long par three that plays from an elevated tee.  This would be a gorgeous vista but the encroaching housing development is already starting to dominate the background even in its early stages.  This hole features an extremely long carry from the tips over the brush but is much more manageable from the middle deck (149 yards from the middle tees).

Hole #13 - 578 Yards Par 5

Hole is in the distance in upper left hand portion of photo of #8 below



The one hole I didn't get a photo of - to this point, our round was already over four hours long.  Yes, four hours to play 12 holes!  It was four o'clock and I had a six o'clock dinner engagement in Vernon so this was going to be my last hole of the day since it's about an hour and a half drive.  Needless to say, I wasn't happy.

The hole is another par five with a very long forced carry.  From the tips, it's 205 yards to reach the other side of the chasm but from the blues, it's only 100 yards.  Thankfully, the front tees are just off the elevated fairway.  The hole is uphill, doglegs left the whole way and it also falls off severely on the left side the entire length of the hole.  There is a ton of room right, however.  This hole played into the wind and it was a chore just to reach the short grass!

Hole #14 - 453 Yards Par 4

Tee Shot



I decided since I was out here that I was going to quickly drive through the remainder of the course, take a few photos and see what I was missing before departing.  The 14th looks like a blast to play, which didn't help my mood much ;)  The tee shot, as you can see, is completely blind but the fairway is incredibly generous and starts tumbling down after about 220 yards.

Approach Shot


What a panoramic here!  The approach is downhill the whole way to a green that sits in the shadow of the mountains and Lake Kamloops.  Looks like a low, running shot would be accepted quite nicely here.

In front of green


I was pretty disappointed not to get the chance to play this hole.  Looks like fun.

Hole #15 - 155 Yards Par 3

Tee Shot



Postcard-type view from this elevated tee on a bluff overlooking the calm waters of Lake Kamloops.  Short par three with a large green but miss left and you're dead.  Another lovely looking hole.

Hole #16 - 567 Yards Par 5

Tee Shot



Here's yet another hole that looks like a blast to play and I missed out because of the ridiculously long delays.  This hole plays sharply downhill the whole way.  Looking at my yardage book, it looks like the ideal line is at the house being built in the distance down the right side.  You can challenge the carry bunkers on the inside of the dogleg but it's a hefty 297 yard carry from the tips and a more manageable 242 from the blues.

View from left rough about 100 Yards from green


The fairway narrows considerably as you get closer to the green, which is guarded in front by a bunker.

Hole #17 - 179 Yards Par 3

Tee Shot



Slightly uphill par three that again is all carry.  Looking at the yardage guide, the green is a bit deeper than it appears in this photo (32 yards) but the shape and slope is from front right to back left with very deep bunkers offering protection in front.  The hole is 114 yards from the front tees and requires a 54 yard uphill shot to carry the brush to the front bunker. 

Hole #18 - 473 Yards Par 4

Tee Shot



Now keep in mind I didn't play this hole but by looks alone, I was pretty disappointed.  Seems like a very plain finish and likely would battle the fourth hole as the most boring on the course.  There is plenty of room off the tee right of the fairway bunker (which is about 300 yards from the tips).

Approach Shot


The approach is played off a slight sidehill lie to a large green protected by bunkers right and front left.

So, what did I think of the course?  Well, first off, I was quite impressed with the conditioning out here.  The greens putted beautifully but were a touch slower than Sagebrush.  The course is relatively firm but certainly pales in comparison with Sagebrush there as well.  Regardless, other than a few holes, you don't have the option to run many shots in here and Tobiano mainly demands an exacting aerial game.

I carry a low handicap and I certainly appreciate stern tests.  However, Tobiano is likely too difficult for the novice and even intermediate players.  There are entirely too many forced carries out here and it adds up to a great many lost balls and five hour plus rounds at best.  Simply put, that's not fun at all and I certainly got a raw deal during my day there, only getting in 13 holes before having to call it a day.

To summarize, Tobiano, while flawed, is jaw-droppingly beautiful and also has to be one of the tougher tests in Canada. I thought the experience of playing there would be a bit higher but the encroaching housing development and the issues with slow play damage what could have been one of the more special golf courses in the country.

Still, I'm very glad I made the effort to play Tobiano and I hope to return someday to play all 18 holes.  Any visitors to Kamloops owe it to themselves to see and play the course if they get the chance.

Alex Miller

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 12:28:29 AM »
Matt,

Great write up and photos! I personally don't think that forced carries of the lengths described are too much of a problem, as long as the landing area on the other side is nice and wide.  ;)

I don't know how it fits with the routing, but to me it looks like if the 9s were switched, you would get a gentler open and a better finisher. Just my thoughts from looking at the photos. What did you think?

Matt Bosela

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2009, 09:21:10 AM »
I don't know how it fits with the routing, but to me it looks like if the 9s were switched, you would get a gentler open and a better finisher. Just my thoughts from looking at the photos. What did you think?

I'd say that's a fair statement and something they can likely consider.  Starting with a penal par five with trouble everywhere and following it up with a borderline reachable par four and then a short one shotter is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.  It took us 45 minutes (!) to play the first two holes due to the group in front of us losing about 8 balls on the first hole alone.

The one negative would be that the new closing holes (#6, #7, #8, #9) would be a super difficult finish whereas the current configuration likely has golfers leave on a happier note due to the softer finish.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Tobiano (Kamloops, BC, Canada) - Photo Tour
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2009, 09:49:52 AM »
45 minutes for the first two holes, and you only finished 12 holes in 4 hours?!  Wow.