Is one of the elements of great architecture

[Melvyn Morrow]

The wind is a fundamental part of the game, be it on a links or inland course. Many architects have utilised this facility within their routing from the early days of designing golf courses. Holes laid out to catch the wind are certainly not new and is most certainly a major factor in how the course plays.

Directional switching is important to utilise the natural feature, which in itself offers challenges with variation subject to the wind velocity and direction. 

Classic example was The Open last year when Norman utilised his game to match the conditions, catching out many of the younger players.

The wind (in all her forms) is a very important tool within the designer’s arsenal. Another reason why the R&A needs to address the ball/travel problem, IMHO.

Minimise the winds influence and the pressure is certainly on the architect to produce something extra special. I suppose that is why there is hardly any extra special courses out there.

Melvyn

[Patrick_Mucci]

We have a new course by Hurdzan/Fry located directly across from the Buffalo/Niagara International Airport.  
There is no doubt that the winds can howl tremendously.  
I would play the course every day and anticipate any number of wind potentials with glee.  
If the wind blows, so be it...play it under and through the zephyrs.  If the wind doesn't blow, adapt.


What's the name of the golf course, there are 4 or 5 courses just north of the BNIA, Westwood, Park, Brookfield and Buffalo CC.

Take a look at the runway orientations, NW to SE and NE to SW, which would seem to indicate the prevailing winds.
Then, take a look at the property the golf courses sit on, certain properties, especially confined ones, can dictate a routing, versus a property like Sand Hills.  One course, Park Country Club built in 1928, two years after the BNIA, seems to have holes that predominantly follow a runway direction.  Do you think that that was by accident, or do you think the architect considered wind direction. ?   Lancaster, to the south, seems to have the same hole configuration.

Do any of the 4 or 5 courses have their nines in a double loop ?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I would say yes.  But this is an interesting topic.  2 points- what about courses that are in generally very windy locales on days when there is no wind? Also what about courses that are designed with a very common prevailing wind in mind on days when the wind shifts?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I would say yes. 
But this is an interesting topic. 

2 points- what about courses that are in generally very windy locales on days when there is no wind?

Seminole comes to mind, as does Sand Hills.
I'm more familiar with Seminole and would make the following statement.
On calm days the course remains challenging, although some find it benign, but, when the winds pick up, usually from the SE, the courses personality changes dramatically.

One of the many things I like about the golf course is how the overall challenge remains consistent, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

ie, # 10 is normally a relatively easy hole.
Many lay up with an iron or fairway wood on their drive, leaving them a short iron into the green.
But, when the wind comes out of the north, the holes personality changes from benign to ferocious.
Now you're directly into the wind, hitting to a green that slopes back to front, right to left, with water short, left and long.
When the hole is cut to the left side of the green, into a north wind, many golfers aim to the RIGHT of the GREEN, hoping to chip/pitch up and make 4 or 5.  6, 7 and higher come into play into a North wind.

On the other hand, # 17 and # 18 go from very difficult holes to much easier holes.

Donald Ross employed his double loop on the nines, with the front nine being counterclock wise and the back nine being clockwise.

When the wind is down, which isn't often, some holes appear easy.  But, when the winds pick up, which is often, those easy holes become exponentially more difficult. 

Also what about courses that are designed with a very common prevailing wind in mind on days when the wind shifts?

Newport comes to mind.
I believe there are two prevailing winds, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon.
Newport doesn't have the typical double loop for each nine, but, the double loop exists to a lesser degree.

Seminole and Newport had one thing in common, WIDE FAIRWAYS.
Those wide fairways accomodate windy conditions, including directional changes from the prevailing winds.
Unfortunately, I believe that Newport narrowed their fairways for a Women's Open in 2006 and hasn't restored them to their original width.

[TEPaul]

"Take a look at the runway orientations, NW to SE and NE to SW, which would seem to indicate the prevailing winds."


Pat:

That's a very good point of yours when it comes to the importance of wind orientation!

This is OT but should be mentioned anyway to confirm your point of wind orientation and its importance in certain circumstances. The other day I was looking at one of the military history channels. The program was on the battle of Midway and the incredible importance of it strategically for the outcome of WW2, and basically how luck played into it so much for the US Navy.

As you probably know being a fan of military history and airplanes, the fighter and bomber squadrons flying off the Enterprise (The Big E) really had to get lucky to even find those four Japanese carriers out in the middle of the Pacific even if they had cracked the Japanese code (without the Japanese knowing it). As you probably know they found those carriers at the extreme end of their one way turn around time (low on fuel for the return flight). Some of those old pilots in that program said they were so lucky when they actually found those Japanese carriers that they were flying at them dead direct into a pretty strong headwind which allowed them to not have to calculate any windage side to side when they let their single 500lb bombs go at around 1500ft after diving at those carriers at about 70 degrees directly into a strong headwind. (One of the pilots said he took it right down to 1000ft not even knowing if he could pull out of his dive in time to miss the top of the carrier or the ocean itself).

But the point is they said luck was on our side that day because they just happened to find those carriers while coming at them dead into the wind, and had they not gotten lucky and taken out three out of four of those carriers in that single run that day the entire course of WW2 and perhaps our future could've been very different and largely due to a dead headwind! Not to even mention that on their return to the Enterprise they were getting some real help downwind when they found their carrier as their planes were just about on fumes.

So, yes, wind sure can be important sometimes!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

As you know, carriers, especially prior to the introduction of the catapult, had to turn into the wind to launch and recover their planes.

That made them the most vulnerable to those dive bomber attacks when they launched and recovered.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

In that program of the battle of Midway I found one of the most ironic things was that all four of those Japenese carriers had enormous bright red symbols of the rising sun painted right in the middle of their flight decks which those bomber pilots off the Enterprise that day said was just about the most perfect bullseye for them to dive at and aim their single 500 lbs bombs directly at.  

You know the ironies and coincidences of war are really something. I just realized both my uncle and my future stepmother's husband who were a couple of fighter pilots were both killed on the USS Wasp when it got hit by a kamikaze. And I think it's true to say that Pres. Bush 41 was damn lucky to make it out of the Pacific theater as I think he had to ditch at sea one time.

[Jud_T]

Pat,

This is the first intelligent rationale that I have seen here for 2 loops of nine.  thanx...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

This is the first intelligent rationale that I have seen here for 2 loops of nine.  thanx...

Jud,

In many, if not most cases, one loop was clockwise and the other counterclock wise.

I think this arrangement allowed the routing and individual holes to "balance out" whenever the wind blew from a different direction.

Donald Ross favored a piece of property shaped like a fan with the clubhouse at the bottom and two loops of nine above it.

I don't know if many parcels of land met his prefered criterion, but, the double looping nines are quite common.

TEPaul,

"Victory at Sea" was one of my favorite programs, I'm sure you've seen it.

Many photos taken from high above show the wakes of ships trying to out maneuver the dive bombers.

Carriers were extremely vulnerable during launch and recovery because they had to steam straight ahead, into the wind and couldn't take evasive action.

Many squadrons of Torpedo Bombers never returned because they had to go low, on the deck, in order to drop their torpedos and at that time they were extremely vulnerable to the fighter cover from above.

It turned out that the carriers, not the cruisers and battleships won the Pacific, hence Pearl Harbor, while a military disaster, did not cause us to lose the Pacific.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Good point about a prevailing wind at Seminole and a hole like #10.

I am definitely no weatherman type but from decades of experience on Florida east coast courses like that one and Gulf Stream it seems like the vast majority of the time one can depend on that prevailing wind out of the SE but when a significant storm starts to brew it tends to shift out of the N or NW which pretty much flip-flops most of the hole strategies on that particular golf course.

Regarding Pearl Harbor and how lucky we were, on Dec. 7 1941 most of our aircraft carriers were not in Pearl Harbor and the Japanese did not know that!

Apparently the other truly lucky factor for us with the attack on Pearl Harbor was the Japanese admiral of the attack fleet of Japanese carriers was fairly cautious and decided not to throw a third and last wave of planes at Pearl but to beat a retreat back across the Pacific because he figured the Americans might figure out where he was if he didn't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

There are a great number of holes that play one way in the prevailing SE wind, and quite another way when the wind shifts out of the North, NW and West.

If you start by studying the par 3's, it's quite interesting.
# 5's personality changes drastically when the wind is other than SE.
# 8 when the wind is from the West is very difficult.
And, on # 17 when the winds are from the E or W, the green becomes about 1/3 its size.
# 13 leads a sheltered life, protected from winds from the north by the trees and buildings.
Still, its personality changes dramaticallly when the winds shift.

# 4, while difficult in the SE wind, becomes impossible in a North wind.

If you look at the metamorphosis each hole goes through with directional changes in the wind it's quite interesting, HOWEVER, the overall challenge remains almost static, a tribute to the routing and individual hole design, I believe.

Go through each hole with the four directional winds, it's a fun exercise.

As to Pearl Harbor, fortunately, none of our carriers were anywhere near PH at the time of the attack.

[Anthony Gray]

the overall balance, challenge and enjoyment in the play of the golf course irrespective of the direction of the wind ?

Do great courses remain great, irrespective of the direction of the wind ?

Please think before typing.

  Pat,

  How many US courses are really effected by a wind?

  Anthony

[Jud_T]

Anthony,

all of 'em   

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

all of 'em   

small factor in the US

  Come on Jud. Give me more. Pinehurst no wind. Oakmont no wind. Pebble wind I agree. I think wind is a. At my home course in Tennesse maybe once a year the course plays differently because of wind.

 Anthony

 

[Jud_T]

Any course without a lot of trees is affected.  My former club was fairly wide open, and there was almost always a 1-2 club wind to consider...

[Anthony Gray]

  Jud and all,

  Are inland US courses effected by wind on a reguler basis/ I think not. I would say only waterside courses are effected on a consitantant basis. This is why I have an issue with my home course not moving tee boxes. We get the same course every day.

 Anthony

 

[Jud_T]

Anthony-have you ever been to Texas?  Fyi-my club set 2 tee boxes every day based on the wind.  But obviously its a bigger issue at Pac Dunes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

A great many of them.

GCGC is almost constantly subject to a good breeze, usually out of the south.
Hidden Creek also gets a good breeze.

Sand Hills gets strong winds as do many interior courses.

I don't know where you get the notion that wind isn't a factor except on the coastal courses.

How much experience have you had playing American courses ?

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  I think this is an excellent point.  The ability to judge and play the wind is an important element in playing the game.  To the extent a course tests this ability from a variety of angles, it adds to the challenge and fun.  Moreover, a course played regularly that plays differently when the wind shifts will hold a player's interest.  As you know, I belong to an inland club near Chicago.  Our prevailing wind in the summer is SW but the influence of Lake Michigan can make for some intersting shifts and when a front comes through generating a NE wind, the entire complexion of the course changes.  It forces a player to think about every shot.

[tlavin]

Pat;  I think this is an excellent point.  The ability to judge and play the wind is an important element in playing the game.  To the extent a course tests this ability from a variety of angles, it adds to the challenge and fun.  Moreover, a course played regularly that plays differently when the wind shifts will hold a player's interest.  As you know, I belong to an inland club near Chicago.  Our prevailing wind in the summer is SW but the influence of Lake Michigan can make for some intersting shifts and when a front comes through generating a NE wind, the entire complexion of the course changes.  It forces a player to think about every shot.

True, true.  Just think about Amen Corner.  The best players in the world are routinely stumped, mystified and defied by the wind that whispers through the Georgia Pines.  I think I'll stop at that; I'm starting to sound like Bobby Clampett.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL Solow,

Does the challenge presented by the course balance out over all 18 holes when the wind shifts from the SW to NE ?

[SL_Solow]

Fine question.  I think it does.  Our longest par 4s run in opposite directions so it changes the way each one plays.  Our starting stretch is against the previling wind and plays quite long in ordinary conditions.  The final stretch is shorter and generally plays with a helping wind so again the strategy changes and balances out pretty well.  I am still waiting for you to get to Chicago and you can see for yourself.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL Solow,

Maybe this summer.

I think Shinnecock's routing and individual hole designs accomodate the prevailing wind exceptionally well, but, as we've seen, when the winds come from other directions, I think the course can become more difficult.

In other words, winds from different directions, especially the north, seem to present an enhanced challenge.

I'd like to hear from TEPaul and Wayno on that issue.

[JESII]

Pat,

I know you had direct access to the Wright brothers when you all were in high school, but I have a question about the direction of the runways at the Buffalo Airport...could it be that the orientation you described simply guarantees wind resistance wherever it's coming from?


As to the rest, good thread, I'll jump in with more contribution after I get the kids to bed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I know you had direct access to the Wright brothers when you all were in high school, but I have a question about the direction of the runways at the Buffalo Airport...could it be that the orientation you described simply guarantees wind resistance wherever it's coming from?

Jim,

I don't think so.
Like on an aircraft carrier, especially before the advent of catapults, planes needed to take off and land directly into the wind, not with winds that offers an element of resistance.

This is most noticeable on single runway airports, which is how most airports began.

I'm sure that you've heard of the dangers of cross winds.

Where feasible, airport runways are oriented to take advantage of the prevailing wind/s

Years ago, I initiated a thread about golf course routings, nearby airports, and wind direction.
Perhaps someone who knows how to use the search facility can retrieve it. 

As to the rest, good thread, I'll jump in with more contribution after I get the kids to bed.

Your wife told me that you were included in that category, and that your bed time is 11:00 pm, so you'd better hurry.

You've played Seminole, so you can speak to playing there in various winds and the retention of the overall challenge.