Is one of the elements of great architecture

[Patrick_Mucci]

the overall balance, challenge and enjoyment in the play of the golf course irrespective of the direction of the wind ?

Do great courses remain great, irrespective of the direction of the wind ?

Please think before typing.

[Ian Andrew]

Please think before typing.

Unfortunately that is beyond my skill set.  

[Ronald Montesano]

Patrick,

Did all those who laid out "great" courses consider the effect of the wind?  Did some just get lucky?  or unlucky?  I know that today's professionals have instruments and experience (not to mention predecessors) that allow them to consider how the wind will intimidate, impede or assist on all hole possibilities.  I cannot believe that all architects of all time considered (much less anticipated correctly) the best utilization of the four winds' influence.

I also don't ever recall declaiming on a course that "oh, this hole would be so much better if it played upwind/downwind/crosswind."  Although there is a prevailing wind in most cases, that wind is subject to change, depending on the season of the year.  I personally believe that this uncertainty adds to the value of a course.

We have a new course by Hurdzan/Fry located directly across from the Buffalo/Niagara International Airport.  There is no doubt that the winds can howl tremendously.  I would play the course every day and anticipate any number of wind potentials with glee.  If the wind blows, so be it...play it under and through the zephyrs.  If the wind doesn't blow, adapt.

[Mac Plumart]

My research leads me to believe that the answer to your question is the precise reason that some of the "rules" of great golf course architecture center around routing a course to avoid holes that are parrellel to each other.  If the architect avoids parrellel holes, then the direction of the wind will add a different element of strategy to each hole. 

Furthermore, it is my understanding that this element of strategy (avoiding parrellel holes and the wind factor) is enhanced on sea side courses.  My own experience of playing Kiawah Ocean with 20 to 30 mph winds verifies this.  All I can say is that it was a great experience of playing a very well thought out and laid out course in great/windy conditions. 

 

[TEPaul]

"Please think before typing.  "


Patrick:

Would you consider it rude of me if I asked you if you were actually thinking when you typed and posted this thread? 

[Adam Clayman]

My research leads me to believe that the answer to your question is the precise reason that some of the "rules" of great golf course architecture center around routing a course to avoid holes that are parrellel to each other.  If the architect avoids parrellel holes, then the direction of the wind will add a different element of strategy to each hole. 

Furthermore, it is my understanding that this element of strategy (avoiding parrellel holes and the wind factor) is enhanced on sea side courses.  My own experience of playing Kiawah Ocean with 20 to 30 mph winds verifies this.  All I can say is that it was a great experience of playing a very well thought out and laid out course in great/windy conditions. 

 

Mac, On the subject of parallel holes ... you'd make a great case until you run into the Old Course. Which means "Rules" in GCA are not treated like rules in other disciplines. Properly breaking them creates genius, in some cases.

[BCrosby]

Hmmm. Let's see.... Well, ..., But.... Maybe.... Nah....

Ok. You win. I give up.

Bob

[Mac Plumart]

Adam...

I think you are totally correct.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

I think you have to place "links" courses, the out and back routing, in a seperate category.

I think the land, or available land may have predetermined or limited the routing to an out and back routing, so, for the sake of this thread, let's eliminate "links" and/or "out and back" routings.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Please think before typing.  "


Patrick:

Would you consider it rude of me if I asked you if you were actually thinking when you typed and posted this thread? 

TEPaul, I was thinking, " I wonder what kind of dumb and inane question TEPaul will ask me ?"

But, now I have the answer.

Think about NGLA, Shinnecock, Seminole, Newport and Maidstone and how those courses hold up, and are balanced, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

Ron, I think the early architects gave careful consideration of the wind.
I think they were well aware of the winds, especially prevailing winds, and designed accordingly.

[Rick Sides]

Pat,
Honestly I enjoy a course that the wind can play a factor.  On my course, the wind can change on holes from day to day.  There is an uphill par 3 that can require anyhting from a 4 iron to a driver depending on the wind that day.  I like when a course can play completely different.

[Ronald Montesano]

St. Patrick,

I'll bite.  I don't personally know any of the six courses you mentioned, so I can't speak to their wind-based stability.  I do know that they have the privilege of waterside location, something that most other courses lack.  If I may be so insidious, can you more than think/suspect that early architects definitively took wind into consideration when designing specific holes?  My respect for their ilk is massive; how they might have altered their routings, based on zephyrs, would enhance their reputations even more.

[Eric Smith]

Any more I just don't play the same course often enough to note how the variance in wind direction affects the architecture, a problem I'd love to have knowing that I'd be playing more golf!

But, I have spent a considerable amount of my free time walking on my parent's farm over the past 6-7 years and have taken good notes on the variable winds that they experience out there on that farm and it's potential to impact the architecture of the 'golf course' that I see out there waiting for my lottery win to flush it out.

The real beauty of the wind and it's directional change is possibilites.  A golf hole, or even better a sequence of golf holes routed in different directions that provide(s) multiple strategies off of the tee for example, factoring the variable winds one may experience is yet another piece of the puzzle that a great golf course asks the player to discover along the journey.

Might as well say TOUCHDOWN TENNESSEE before hitting send!   

[Jaeger Kovich]

Tom D is constantly talking about wind direction and how it influences how he wants his golf holes to play... Especially in Bandon, where there is a predominant/seasonal wind.

Also, a few mentioned the Ocean Course, which does have a modified out and back routing. I played it 4 times over 5 days trying to experience it in different wind conditions. The best way to combat the wind here is to change tees... there is a reason there are 6 sets of tees... A number of the holes will play very different, especially the par 3s, and #18. When 18 is into the wind you may not even be able to reach with 3 wood, but downwind, you can catch the slope over the bunker and have a mid-iron. I believe the yardage book says the par 3 #14 will play a difference of up to 8 clubs depending on the wind... Pete Dye DEFINITELY considered wind here!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron, if you examine the history of flight in the US, starting pre 1900 though the "Golden Age", along with the creation of the network of airports in or near the population centers, the same areas where golf courses were built, I think a prudent person could conclude that there was a keen awareness of the wind in terms of direction and velocity.

Most runways align themselves with prevailing winds where prevailing winds exist.

Long before ships were motorized, wind, wind direction and wind velocity were also well understood in America.

To think that an architect would ignore the influence of the wind in crafting his routing and design would seem counter intuitive and unprofessional.

Donald Ross and others felt that the ideal shape for a golf course was having nines in a double loop in opposite directions.
It would seem that this configuration was intended to take advantage of any wind direction.

I can't imagine that Seth Raynor, his counterpart at Merion and other Engineers ignored wind direction and velocity, can you ?

[Ronald Montesano]

All I'm asking for is irrefutable proof (writings, interviews) wherein the architect mentions this recognition of and adherence to, the influence of wind.  I'm enthusiastic for either side and am simply on a fact-finding mission.  It is one thing for us to suppose and surmise, and quite another to say "look here on page XX of Tome YYYY, where architect Z Z-Z mentions wind."

I'll not dispute what you say about the other professional fields, such as flight and shipping.  It is a leap (although a not indefensable one) to say that architects would have understood and utilized wind because scientists and engineers also did so.

Which, in your consideration, architects would have been most likely to consider wind?  The engineering brethren or others?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

If you'll read "Scotland's Gift" by Charles Blair Macdonald, you'll see ample reference to the wind.

In addition, wasn't it an olde Scottish slogan, "ney wind, ney golf" ?

Seth Raynor was an architect who graduated Princeton with an Engineering degree.

[Ronald Montesano]

Even such a quote as "no wind, no golf" alludes only to its presence, not to its influence.  Skiiers and sliders might add "no snow, no slide" as elemental, while later recognizing that packed powder, granular, pow pow and other variations of the white stuff make the experience different.

I will re-read Scotland's Gift.  Let's get to the nut of the matter:  what holes are so critically dependent on the wind that you cannot imagine them facing in the opposite direction?  For example, flip #18 at Pebble Beach...Does the alteration change the hole much, other than making it a right-sliding rather than left sliding hole?  Have #8 at Pebble play up from the green, across the chasm, to a new green sited on the bluff.  Does the new direction depend on wind for its success?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Even such a quote as "no wind, no golf" alludes only to its presence, not to its influence. 

Ron, that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard in a while.

Skiiers and sliders might add "no snow, no slide" as elemental, while later recognizing that packed powder, granular, pow pow and other variations of the white stuff make the experience different.

Ron, we're talking about a ball in flight being influenced by the wind.
If you want to deny that influence it makes you look foolish.

I will re-read Scotland's Gift. 
Let's get to the nut of the matter: 
what holes are so critically dependent on the wind that you cannot imagine them facing in the opposite direction? 

What holes at Shinnecock and/or NGLA do you want me to cite.

For example, flip #18 at Pebble Beach...Does the alteration change the hole much, other than making it a right-sliding rather than left sliding hole?  Have #8 at Pebble play up from the green, across the chasm, to a new green sited on the bluff.  Does the new direction depend on wind for its success?

Ron, please, confine your argument to holes that exist, not fabrications or hypotheticals.
If you don't understand the influence of the winds at # 18 or # 8 at PBGC that's another thing.
If # 8 played into the wind, would anyone par the hole ?
If # 18 played into a crossing headwind, from right to left, would the hole play differently from a wind off the Ocean.

[Ronald Montesano]

Large, green italics...someone seems frustrated...so sad.

Let's put it to bed, then.  Original question:

"Do great courses remain great, irrespective of the direction of the wind ?"

Yes, they do.  Anyone who thinks that the wind has more importance than the physical characteristics of the course is an ass.  The course is the course.  The wind, the calm, the dry, the rain are arbitrary and inconsistent.  The only consistent element is the course.

[Tim Gavrich]

Judging by the aerial view of NGLA, its routing appears to be largely of the "out-and-back" variety, so I guess it's a course that should be left out of this discussion, per the seventh post on this thread?

I think this consideration of the effects of winds on different holes is present almost exclusively on oceanside/seaside courses.  What about the great inland courses?  Were the respective architects of courses like Pinehurst No. 2, Winged Foot, and Pine Valley quite concerned with prevailing winds?  I'm sure the architects didn't ignore the wind issue, but I don't think it's a big deal on inland courses.

I'm inclined to say that if a golf course plays appreciably better in some wind directions than others, it is flawed in its architecture.  That really only seems to be a huge concern on the "links" and "out-and-back" courses which you have eliminated from consideration of this question.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm no engineer, but I believe that you and I agree, Tim.

[Sean_A]

I also don't ever recall declaiming on a course that "oh, this hole would be so much better if it played upwind/downwind/crosswind."  Although there is a prevailing wind in most cases, that wind is subject to change, depending on the season of the year.  I personally believe that this uncertainty adds to the value of a course.

Ron

I think your first sentence is true.  So far as I know, folks think in terms of accommodating wind.  For instance, not placing front bunkering tight to the green on downwind holes (especially par 3s) unless there is a reasonable gap to kick one on or some other means to access the putting surface when the wind is stronger than normal.  That said, you see holes "breaking this rule" all the time.  his leads me to believe that archies like to be little devils sometimes. 

Your second sentence while true isn't entirely accurate.  There are prevailing winds and I do believe most archies would design to that wind pattern most of the time.  That said, thre of the best ways to design for wind is to make fairways wide, reduce forced carries and keep the rough properly controlled.  Not many golfers would complain about the odd harsh bunkering or stream etc if the above three elements are adhered to. 

Ciao 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Judging by the aerial view of NGLA, its routing appears to be largely of the "out-and-back" variety, so I guess it's a course that should be left out of this discussion, per the seventh post on this thread?

To the contrary, the influence of the wind, especially the prevailing winds, on NLGA is substantial and affects scoring dramatically.

I think this consideration of the effects of winds on different holes is present almost exclusively on oceanside/seaside courses.  What about the great inland courses?  Were the respective architects of courses like Pinehurst No. 2, Winged Foot, and Pine Valley quite concerned with prevailing winds?  I'm sure the architects didn't ignore the wind issue, but I don't think it's a big deal on inland courses.

Obviously you've never played Sand Hills where the wind can be a huge factor.

I'm inclined to say that if a golf course plays appreciably better in some wind directions than others, it is flawed in its architecture. 


Then we agree.

That really only seems to be a huge concern on the "links" and "out-and-back" courses which you have eliminated from consideration of this question.

That's not true.  Sand Hills being a prime example.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Large, green italics...someone seems frustrated...so sad.
Another factual error on your part.

Let's put it to bed, then.  Original question:

"Do great courses remain great, irrespective of the direction of the wind ?"

Yes, they do.  

Anyone who thinks that the wind has more importance than the physical characteristics of the course is an ass.  

No one ever made that claim.  That's your attempt to divert and deflect the issue.

The course is the course.  The wind, the calm, the dry, the rain are arbitrary and inconsistent.  
The only consistent element is the course.

Obviously you've never heard of the term, "prevailing wind/s"
They're pretty consistent and have a great deal of influence over the play of the golf course.
Just ask anyone who's played Seminole on calm and windy days.

Would you also answer the questions regarding # 8 and # 18 at PBGC.