New South Wales - routing, pictures and opinion from Norvegia

[Jason Topp]

While I remember nearly every hole on the course, I have no memory of the 4th.  It looks pretty bland from the pictures. 

[Andrew Brown]

Just for interests sake....a line from the Sydney Morning Herald reporting the first day's play at NSW for the Australian Open.

Perhaps the best stat of the day on the difficulty was that on the fifth and 15th holes there were 12 lost balls and 60 unplayable lies.
That's a lot for a professional tournament - no?

Regards
Andrew

[Brian Phillips]

Just for interests sake....a line from the Sydney Morning Herald reporting the first day's play at NSW for the Australian Open.

Perhaps the best stat of the day on the difficulty was that on the fifth and 15th holes there were 12 lost balls and 60 unplayable lies.
That's a lot for a professional tournament - no?

Regards
Andrew

Says more about the golf course than anything I have said.  The fifth is dramatic but so difficult from that elevated tee and the 15th is just a ridiculous drive....hey...but what the hell do I know.

[Andrew Summerell]

Brian, I’m interested that you say the elevated tees & scrub make driving too difficult for the high wind conditions, yet talk about the lack of internal movement in the greens as if it’s a fault. Quite a few of the greens have steep slopes (not internal movement though) which I believe is enough for such a site. I don’t believe every course should require green complexes with evident internal movement, as it looks unnatural in many cases & is easy to read.

[Scott Warren]

On how many holes did you guys play from the reds?

[Brian Phillips]

Andrew,

I agree that greens do not have to have lots of internal movement but some movement can create some nice strategy within a green.

[Brian Phillips]

On how many holes did you guys play from the reds?

Way too many...where it was an elevated tee and the red tee was lower we played off the white tees.  Where the tees were on a similar level we played of the reds or the very front of the whites.  I would say we played mostly off the very front of the white tees. I need to check the yardage book.

[Ben Stephens]

Brian,

Having mentioned NSW on Scott's thread. I have been watching the Australian Open on Sky Sports this morning and I have flown over the course when landing at Sydney Airport. From your pics I get the general feeling that these revetted pot bunkers are out of character with this course, its character, vegetation and type of grasses. I believe that pot bunkers are better suited to the 'yellowy' links golf courses of Northern Europe.

I have done a Photoshop image of the 1st hole as existing and what would it look like with more natural waste like bunkers.

As Existing



What would it look like with waste bunkers



I would say that the waste bunkers blend in better with the surrounds and the way the hole has been played is unchanged

Cheers
Ben

[Brian Phillips]

Ben,

To paraphrase Mike Strantz "...it takes a lot more money and maintenance to look after waste areas than people realise".  I understand what you are saying and your bunkers looks great but they might not be the correct choice on that site due to the wind.

[Andrew Bertram]

On the third hole yesterday in the Open one of the guys we coach had one of the more amazing fours.

Your picture from the tee shows how he did it perfectly.

Shot 1. Driver low in the face and staright into the tee tree

Shot 2. Provisional - high cut right

Shot 3. Provisional 2 - good shot

Walking off the tee thinking here goes the week having played 3 balls.
First ball - LOST
2nd ball found - 195 metres from the green but clear

Playing his 4th shot with 3 wood straight into the wind - IN THE HOLE - amazing 4

Play is currently suspended with gale force winds across the course.

[Scott Warren]

Ben. Good photoshop job, but I much prefer the pots in that image.

[Duncan Betts]

Whilst the waste bunkers would suit the course far better than the terrible bunkering the course has now, I'm not sure they could stand up to the conditions?

For such a beautiful site, the aesthetics are quite poor as far as the course itself goes.

[Brian Phillips]

Ben. Good photoshop job, but I much prefer the pots in that image.

Scott,

At least we agree on one thing!  Look forward to meeting you at Buda VIII

[Matthew Mollica]

Ben & others, the newly added waste area between the 9th and 10th fairways is admittedly at a lowish point, but it will be interesting to see how that matures with foot traffic, and wind, over the next year or two. Should it preserve its character, and prove straightforward to maintain, we may see more of it on the course. After all, the area between 4 and 8, and that between 8 and 12 are similar in nature, and they too will be interesting to study.

Brian, thanks for your continuance with this thread; I'm really enjoying it and will wait a tiny bit longer before jumping in wholeheartedly. In the interim, whilst simplistic, I'd be interested in a cumulative score for NSW, if you were to grade each hole out of 10, and then provide the total course mark out of 180. I'd be similarly interested if you were to undertake such an exercise for eiher RS, or alternatively, a course you have played, and feel is one of the world's best.

MM

[Ben Stephens]

Brian/Scott,

A better compromise would be the bunker style as at Royal County Down - 'goldfish bowl shaped' like blow up hairy bunkers (probably the best set of bunkers I have seen on a golf course) this would contain the sand in the bunkers and still give NSW a more natural look. I still think that the revetted bunkers look so artifical at NSW.

Matthew - for golf courses I use 100 as opposed to 200 - out of 5 for each hole plus out of 5 for the conditioning and out of 5 for the clubhouse and practice areas. A five star hole would be for example 13th at Augusta etc.

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

I still think that the revetted bunkers look so artifical at NSW.

Don't they look artificial everywhere?

[Ben Stephens]

I still think that the revetted bunkers look so artifical at NSW.

Don't they look artificial everywhere?

Scott,

99.99 of bunkers are artificial but it is how you blend them into the landscape/surroundings I still think it could be done better at NSW instead of trying to resemble the bunkers on British links courses. The artificial revetted bunkers look far much better at courses like RSG and RCP because they blend better with that type of landscape. If i was designing NSW from scratch I would not use revetted bunkers. One wonders how Dr. Mackenzie would design these bunkers today he would probably build very few of them probably up to 20 on the whole course.

There are very few natural bunkers such as God's at Askernish, the Himalayas at St. Enodoc etc

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

None of MacKenzie's bunkering at NSW was ever put in, IIRC. he designed it, it got built, the depression hit almost immediately and the bunkering never got done, then in 1934 (?) Apperley was brought in to redesign it.

[Ben Stephens]

None of MacKenzie's bunkering at NSW was ever put in, IIRC. he designed it, it got built, the depression hit almost immediately and the bunkering never got done, then in 1934 (?) Apperley was brought in to redesign it.

I knew that Mackenzie was involved at NSW but not the bunkering aspect of the design. Like at most Australian courses he was involved in the initial/early design but not all of the construction of the golf course. He was heavily involved in the design/construction of the original Augusta, Cypress Point. Thats why I was wondering what NSW would have been like if Mackenzie was there on a regular basis during construction etc.

[Ian Andrew]

You guys can knock on the bunkers all you want, but I happen to really like the revetted bunkers.
They look a hell of a lot better than the remaining sand expanses that are there.

I love the fact they are tight to the green, which is tough with a blow out bunker.
I love the fact they are surrounded by short grass right up to the edge.

I think they look great and remind me of the scottish courses I enjoy, is that so bad?

I love blow out bunkers too, but they don't belong everywhere.

[Brian Phillips]

Ian,

We eventually agree on something architectural!

Scott,

The courses that Mackenzie has received a good reputation from are courses where he managed to team up with either a very good construction manager (Morcom) or someone of very good design ideas (Jones or Hunter).  I have yet to hear of a MacKenzie course that he designed alone that it truly outstanding apart from maybe Pasatiempo.

Maybe MacKenzie's routing which was not used at NSW would have been an improvement?  Who knows?
 

[Scott Warren]

I thought the routing (sans 6 and 14?) was the major element of MacKenzie's involvement that remained? Albeit some holes were turned from two par 4s into a par 5 etc, but the routing of the corridors is largely MacKenzie's, I believe.

[Brian Phillips]

Robin:

One fact about the sixth at New South Wales which you didn't mention (and may not know) is that it was NOT part of Dr. MacKenzie's routing for the golf course.  It was added a few years later by Eric Apperly, who designed Newcastle GC and redesigned several holes at NSW.  (In fact, if I recall correctly, NONE of the par-3 holes at NSW are Dr. MacKenzie's.)

In MacKenzie's routing you went right from #5 to #7.

Tom Doak mentioned on the other thread about the MacKenzie routing but I am not sure what is and what isn't his anymore.

[Andrew Summerell]

Maybe MacKenzie's routing which was not used at NSW would have been an improvement?  Who knows?
 

Brian, when you were there you should have purchased (or shop lifted) a 75th anniversary book. It shows the original MacKenzie routing in the front. The routing wasn’t that good & it would be interesting to know exactly how much time he spent on site.

[Andrew Summerell]

A better compromise would be the bunker style as at Royal County Down - 'goldfish bowl shaped' like blow up hairy bunkers (probably the best set of bunkers I have seen on a golf course) this would contain the sand in the bunkers and still give NSW a more natural look. I still think that the revetted bunkers look so artifical at NSW.

Ben,

Yesterday at the Aus Open showed why they continue to keep the Rivetted/Sod-Faced bunkers. Keeping sand in the bunkers at NSW is sometimes difficult. The RCD style would probably work well with keeping the sand in them, but the hairy edges would not work so well with the grasses that NSW has compared to RCD.

Ian,

I agree about the bunkers. I think they work well & they remind me of the many U.K. seaside courses I have played over the years as well. I'm not so mad about the waste areas (& I'll be interested to see how they go over time) or the style they experimented with on the left side of the 4th green.