North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom Macwood

All you have to do is reread my reply #136 above. You asked this question before. Don't you remember?

[Tom MacWood]

Steve
What changes did White make to the course during his stint?

[TEPaul]

Steverino:

Don't even consider answering the information-challenged jerk's last question. Just tell him to do his own indepedent research as he is so fond of telling some of us to do.

[Tom MacWood]

I should have posted my big news in this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42476.0/

Tom,

My reading of the minutes indicates that North Shore hired Raynor to design the course and that White,in his capacity as superintendent, assisted and cooperated with Raynor. Furthermore, Mac Donald apparently visited the course while it was under construction and may have made some contribution as well, given his relationship with Raynor.

Could you give us a timeline of events?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The timeline has been posted before.

[TEPaul]

"Could you give us a timeline of events?"


Steverino:

My advice to you would be don't even bother answering the reading-challenged researcher from Ohio. Get what you've come up with to the club itself and then get their greenlight if anyone wants to let the information out to bottom-fishers like Tom MacWood. And even if he gets it somehow down the line other than doing it himself what is he going to do with the info other than find something to disagree with to try to make a name for himself?

Get it all done with the club itself and then let us know if it's OK with the principles all the way around.
 
 

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the timeline taken from another thread:

"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.
2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.
3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.
4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.
5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.
6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.
7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.
9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.
10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.
11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.
12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes

The only item I found pertaining to the Club in the scrapbooks was a copy of the Annual Report of the President dated March 13, 1915 referenced above.

I reviewed the Harmonie Club history, “One Hundred Years- The Harmonie Club- 1852-1952” and could find no reference to the North Shore golf course other than it was built.

It should be noted that copying of the Minutes was not permitted.    I was told that digital images could be made but I did not know that in advance of my visit. I did have the front page and one of the two pages referencing the golf course of the President’s report dated March 13, 1915 copied by a librarian who used an overhead copier as the item was stapled in the scrapbook.

This was a very interesting and rewarding experience. There is nothing like old-fashioned hands on research. Not everything in the world is on the internet via old newspaper and magazine articles. "

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the timeline taken from another thread:

"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.
2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.
3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.
4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.
5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.
6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.
7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.
9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.
10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.
11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.
12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes

The only item I found pertaining to the Club in the scrapbooks was a copy of the Annual Report of the President dated March 13, 1915 referenced above.

I reviewed the Harmonie Club history, “One Hundred Years- The Harmonie Club- 1852-1952” and could find no reference to the North Shore golf course other than it was built.

It should be noted that copying of the Minutes was not permitted.    I was told that digital images could be made but I did not know that in advance of my visit. I did have the front page and one of the two pages referencing the golf course of the President’s report dated March 13, 1915 copied by a librarian who used an overhead copier as the item was stapled in the scrapbook.

This was a very interesting and rewarding experience. There is nothing like old-fashioned hands on research. Not everything in the world is on the internet via old newspaper and magazine articles. "

Steve
Based upon your timeline it sounds to me like it was a collaboration and not a solo job.

[TEPaul]

To me it sounds like the design of the course was Raynor's. #4 mentions the club approved a plan by Raynor and paid him $1,800 for it. It does not say the plan was done by Raynor and White. But it does sound like White worked with Raynor on the actual construction of the course a couple of months later. It sounds like White acted in the capacity of a construction foreman and greenskeeper for the club on Raynor's design plan.

I think this is what Steve Shaeffer found when he went to the museum in New York where these North Shore GC records were reposited.

To give White design attribution for what he did at North Shore would be sort of like giving Fred Pickering design attribution for Merion East or even the West course in his capacity as construction foreman and original greenskeeper before Flynn took over for the club.

[Tom MacWood]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

"He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."

TEP
You don't think that sounds like a collaboration? The course opened on July 4, 1916 - over a year after the first quote and four or five months after the second quote.

[Tom_Doak]

Regardless of who should get the most credit for the present course [my guess is Raynor], I have been hired by Mr. Zucker to figure out what to do with it now.

There are a few great greens but there are also some holes that are disappointing, so I do not expect this to be a strict restoration project ... most likely we will redesign some parts of the course to try and improve it.  As you all know, I don't take on many projects of that description, but in this case I don't believe that it is one of Raynor's best courses, and I agree with Mr. Zucker that some redesign work would help him attract some new members to make the club viable again.  The extent of this work is still to be determined, but we will probably start work on it in the fall, perhaps even sooner if we can find some things that won't disrupt play too much.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom Doak,

Great news that you will be involved at North Shore. I've been expecting this news in the form of a formal annoucement from Mr. Zucker but,once again, Golf Club Atlas makes news!!!

[TEPaul]

"TEP
You don't think that sounds like a collaboration? The course opened on July 4, 1916 - over a year after the first quote and four or five months after the second quote."


I definitely feel there was a collaboration between Raynor and White at North Shore but it certainly doesn't sound like a design collaboration. It seems pretty clear that NS hired only Raynor to produce a "design plan" for the course. Apparently you think a construction foreman/greenskeeper should be given co-design attribution. Read what Doak says on that; that might be mildly debatable for some but generally it's just not done that way.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

GOOD DEAL! U Da Man! Ill see you in Long Island. Aren't you thrilled about that? I was a Recon Marine you know?

[Tim Nugent]

Nice to see that Raynor was paid $2,200 ($400+$1,800) for a $32,000 construction budget or 6-7% (still a common percentage today).  In today's $$$, that would equate to around $340k for a $5m course, while the amount of work needed today due to regulations and permits is greater (and I'm sure Raynor wasn't required to have General and Professional Liability insurance nor was there such a thing as income tax).

[TEPaul]

Good point there TimN:

Who on here agrees with MacWood that Robert White should share DESIGN credit on this course with Raynor, given the material information available on this thread?

I'll go first and I vote NO.

It's pretty clear from the info on here that Robert White was contracted by the club to act as the construction foreman/greenskeeper on this project and not as a "Design" architect. This is definitely down to an analysis thing at this point and that's a pretty common situation and distinction with those kinds of projects.

This is a good thread; this kind of analysis and discussion is what we do and can do on here if a club produces it historic info. It will be interesting to see what the club does with their architectural attribution but it sure looks like they'll go with just Raynor as the designer which seems completely appropriate to me given what they've got so far.

[TEPaul]

George B or Tom D:

How is this one looking as far as being Raynor's first solo design effort?

[Tom MacWood]

Nice to see that Raynor was paid $2,200 ($400+$1,800) for a $32,000 construction budget or 6-7% (still a common percentage today).  In today's $$$, that would equate to around $340k for a $5m course, while the amount of work needed today due to regulations and permits is greater (and I'm sure Raynor wasn't required to have General and Professional Liability insurance nor was there such a thing as income tax).

Tim
It is doubtful Raynor was paid $2200. The architects of that era had a fee for giving advice and suggestions only, another fee for a design only, and third fee for design + supervision. The more likely scenario is he was paid $400 for advice, and if they decided to hire him that $400 would go toward his total fee of $1800. $1500 to $2000 was the going rate at the time. I'd say $1800 was pretty good for someone who had never designed a golf course at that point, of course if CBM was part of the package $1800 would be pretty cheap.

TD
Will you be going through and investigating their archives? According to what Steve's findings a Raynor plan or a Raynor/White plan existed at the time, and I would think that would be an important document for any potential restoration. It might also be useful to understand what of the original Emmet course was incorporated into the 1915-16 design, and how the course was altered by White during his tenure at the club. Also what if anything did Tilly do - I still think its likely he had some involvement, although if it was during his PGA tour that involvement likely was a negative one.

In the early 1920s North Shore had a very lofty reputation, the peak probably coming when the course co-hosted the qualifying rounds of the US Am with Engineers. Bill Reekie a prominent amateur golfer in the Met region (he won the 1921 MetAm) listed NS has the 8th best golf course in the country behind PVGC, Hollywood, Oakmont, Inwood, NGLA, Lido and GCGC.

[Tom_Doak]

TD
Will you be going through and investigating their archives? According to what Steve's findings a Raynor plan or a Raynor/White plan existed at the time, and I would think that would be an important document for any potential restoration. It might also be useful to understand what of the original Emmet course was incorporated into the 1915-16 design, and how the course was altered by White during his tenure at the club. Also what if anything did Tilly do - I still think its likely he had some involvement, although if it was during his PGA tour that involvement likely was a negative one.

In the early 1920s North Shore had a very lofty reputation, the peak probably coming when the course co-hosted the qualifying rounds of the US Am with Engineers. Bill Reekie a prominent amateur golfer in the Met region (he won the 1921 MetAm) listed NS has the 8th best golf course in the country behind PVGC, Hollywood, Oakmont, Inwood, NGLA, Lido and GCGC.

Tom M:

Mr. Zucker has had Mark Hissey (who sometimes participates here) looking through the minutes of the old club and trying to find whatever he can.  However, no one has yet found a design plan or anything like that.  It is also somewhat unclear which of the holes were from the original Emmet course [various accounts are that two or three of them were preserved].  I would guess that holes 13 and 14 were part of Emmet's course since they were obviously parallel holes and it looks like there was another fairway squeezed in between them at one time (or a practice fairway) and that the trees were planted accordingly well before the 1926 aerial photo.

The best research so far is that the attribution to Tillinghast was just a mistake that was repeated in Whitten's book and in Bill Quirin's book on the Met area courses.  The Tillinghast Association has no record of him working at North Shore, even during his tours for the PGA in the Depression.  However, it's clear that somebody at some point took out the "Alps" feature of today's second hole and filled in the punchbowl of the green.

I'm to meet Mr. Zucker after I get back to America and he will then decide how much more research he wants to do into the evolution of the course.  My job now is to figure out what's worth preserving and what's not, and personally I think that the golf values of the holes today is a more important factor than whether one or two of them predate Raynor.  The best example I can think of is Chicago Golf Club ... Raynor and Macdonald could easily have saved the original second hole as part of their renovations, but decided to build a new green 100 yards further on and make it a Road hole instead.

I'm a bit surprised to hear that North Shore was so highly regarded by Mr. Reekie, but I don't know the background -- was he a member there?  Did he win something there?  Generally you don't find it rated that highly by anyone.  There is a lot of competition close by!

P.S. to Tom P.:  I think George decided it was ONE OF Raynor's first courses but not THE first.

[Tim Nugent]

"On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

"He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."

TEP
You don't think that sounds like a collaboration? The course opened on July 4, 1916 - over a year after the first quote and four or five months after the second quote.

Excuse my ignorance here but how does Raynor get to be reported as "The leading golf course architect in the US" if this is his first or one of his first courses?  Or is this just some embellishing by the Board to help sell the project to the membership?  And, if that is the case, couldn't one extrapolate that Raynor and White "consulted" as many modern architects do with superintendents - to educate each other.  Raynor to educate White on his vision for the design, and White to educate Raynor on his vision as to the maintenacne of that design.  Afterall, they did come up with a maintenace budget and I doubt they pull it out of the blue.  This also would show there was concurrence with the soundness of the plan.  Perhaps MacDonald offered his Clout (he was from Chicago) to bolster the "team".  This is not uncommon, even today, for Architects and Superintendents to lend support to their protegee.

[Tom MacWood]

Excuse my ignorance here but how does Raynor get to be reported as "The leading golf course architect in the US" if this is his first or one of his first courses?  Or is this just some embellishing by the Board to help sell the project to the membership?  And, if that is the case, couldn't one extrapolate that Raynor and White "consulted" as many modern architects do with superintendents - to educate each other.  Raynor to educate White on his vision for the design, and White to educate Raynor on his vision as to the maintenacne of that design.  Afterall, they did come up with a maintenace budget and I doubt they pull it out of the blue.  This also would show there was concurrence with the soundness of the plan.  Perhaps MacDonald offered his Clout (he was from Chicago) to bolster the "team".  This is not uncommon, even today, for Architects and Superintendents to lend support to their protegee.

That is a very good question. I asked the very same question when Steve first posted his timeline. An embellishment was one of the possibilities that crossed my mind, the misuse of the term 'architect' as constructor, because that was Raynor's experience to date, also came to mind. I doubt Steve made an error transcribing it.

One thing to keep in mind, this was redesign, not a new design. That most likely was a factor in the hire of White, who was coming off a major redesign at Ravisloe, with William Watson and Aleck Bauer.

[Tom MacWood]

TD
Reekie was a member of Upper Montclair. He won the 1924 Met Amateur at Lido. To my knowledge he never won a major event at North Shore. I think you will find through the course of your research that North Shore was considered one of the best and toughest golf courses in the NYC area, and White was given a lot of credit back then for making it as much.

[TEPaul]

"Excuse my ignorance here but how does Raynor get to be reported as "The leading golf course architect in the US" if this is his first or one of his first courses?  Or is this just some embellishing by the Board to help sell the project to the membership?  And, if that is the case, couldn't one extrapolate that Raynor and White "consulted" as many modern architects do with superintendents - to educate each other.  Raynor to educate White on his vision for the design, and White to educate Raynor on his vision as to the maintenacne of that design.  Afterall, they did come up with a maintenace budget and I doubt they pull it out of the blue.  This also would show there was concurrence with the soundness of the plan.  Perhaps MacDonald offered his Clout (he was from Chicago) to bolster the "team".  This is not uncommon, even today, for Architects and Superintendents to lend support to their protegee."




TimN:


Don't qualify what you say there with 'excuse my ignorance.'

What you said is in no way ignorant, and, matter of fact, the points you make are excellent ones and very likely based in the realities of the time and the reporting of the time on golf courses and clubs. For instance, the periodical reporting of that time, particularly the newspapers, many of which drew their source material they wrote and often exactly the way it was written, sometimes even in quotations, directly from the clubs themselves.

From having read hundreds of these kinds of articles and reports over the years it's impossible to miss how much they got into massive embellishment in those days like what was said about Raynor.

Did Raynor likely get into a form of collaboration with White with North Shore GC? Of course he probably did but it is pretty specific from the material provided by Steve Shaeffer on North Shore that Raynor's roll with that club was as the architect and White's roll was as a construction foreman and greenskeeper which was very common in those days.

That's pretty obvious with North Shore as it was with many of the other courses and projects of the time. Significant courses and projects of the time such as Merion and Pine Valley are good analogies. Fred Pickering of Merion and Jim Govan of Pine Valley served in exactly the same two rolls in the beginning on those projects as Robert White did at North Shore.

Should those clubs and history give Pickering and Govan some kind of co-design or co-architect roll or attribution for Merion and Pine Valley? Today some seem to mention that possiblity but historically that was basically never done and it doesn't look like it will be done at North Shore from now on, and, in my opinion, for good reason, despite the sort of wheadlingly hopeful suggestions to that affect by the likes of Ivory Tower, Ohio's MacWood.

For Goodness Sakes, if some of these clubs were to actually listen to some of the suggetions of that strange, odd-ball historical architecture analyst, he would probaby suggest they also give co-design and co-architect attribution to England's Arts and Crafts Movement's Father, William Morris, who died in 1896 and may never have even seen a golf course in his life!  

[Tim Nugent]

TEP, it's like Dad always said, "there can be many players in the game - but someone's got to wear the striped shirt with the whistle".
That's the problem with collaborations. They come in all sorts of flavors.  But when there is just one architect in the mix, he'll get credit, because it's where the buck stops.  Probably the same reason Principals, and not Associates, get the credit.

It's harder when there are multiples - like Nicklaus and Doak at Sabonic - no one really knows who was responsible for what.  They probably both list it in their Resume'.

[Mark McKeever]

Regardless of who should get the most credit for the present course [my guess is Raynor], I have been hired by Mr. Zucker to figure out what to do with it now.

There are a few great greens but there are also some holes that are disappointing, so I do not expect this to be a strict restoration project ... most likely we will redesign some parts of the course to try and improve it.  As you all know, I don't take on many projects of that description, but in this case I don't believe that it is one of Raynor's best courses, and I agree with Mr. Zucker that some redesign work would help him attract some new members to make the club viable again.  The extent of this work is still to be determined, but we will probably start work on it in the fall, perhaps even sooner if we can find some things that won't disrupt play too much.

Tom,

Its great to see that you will be helping out up there!  I have seen many pictures and have heard a ton about this course.  The greens look awesome.  Hopefully one day I will get a chance to see it in person.

Mark