North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Salem CC is Ross, from 1925, but their website says their first course was built in 1895. They moved one more time ( I presume they had another course built) and finally settled where they are, and with DR.

 

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
There were two early 9-hole courses in Salem, Salem Golf Club, as Jim said founded in 1895, and Salem Country Club founded in 1899. To my knowledge there was never a North Salem Links, and I've found a ton info on the early courses of Boston. You might want to check your source.

[TEPaul]

I would assume the Salem Country Club of 1895 would be the one I'm referring to as I doubt that early there would've been a Salem Country Club and a North Salem Country Club. 

Obviously someone thought Robert White laid it out in 1895 but if that's accurate or not I have no idea at this point.

[Tom MacWood]

What is your source?

[DMoriarty]

Regarding the Suffolk County course planned for East Islip, I believe it may have also been described in 1914 Golf Illustrated:

"The land on which it is proposed to build this course lies in what is known as a Tidal Marsh and extends to the beach of the Great South Bay. It is proposed to reclaim the required acreage by enclosing it with a dike and by using a system of sluices to make the difference in level between high and low tide draw down the water to the necessary point.  This of course is exactly the system by which Holland has added so many thousands of fertile acres to its territory."

Given that the Lido project was ongoing, it is no wonder they brought in CBM, SR, and Lees, Apparently, this was to be a major undertaking.   I've found the land in question and taken a look at the 1938 Aerial, and it looks like some work may have been done regarding drainage, and there are a few features that may have been man made, for a golf course.  But this project didn't last long (Suffolk County Country Club was reported to have disbanded in 1919) so who knows?  Posted a photo below of part of the land.

[George_Bahto]

But this project didn't last long (Suffolk County Country Club was reported to have disbanded in 1919) so who knows?

I would suspect WWI had  a hand in it

[TEPaul]

"Given that the Lido project was ongoing, it is no wonder they brought in CBM, SR, and Lees, Apparently, this was to be a major undertaking.   I've found the land in question and taken a look at the 1938 Aerial, and it looks like some work may have been done regarding drainage, and there are a few features that may have been man made, for a golf course.  But this project didn't last long (Suffolk County Country Club was reported to have disbanded in 1919) so who knows?  Posted a photo below of part of the land."


Very interesting indeed!

I was not aware that a golf course for the Suffolk County Club was ever done. Was a club ever incorporated known as The Suffolk County Club that used land of H.B. Hollins and G.V. Hollins as reported in that 1914 clipping and a golf course actually built? If so were CBM, SR, and Lees used on that project or are you referring to The Lido project? If a course was actually built for Suffolk County Club were Robert White's design plans used that were mentioned in that 1914 clipping? Furthermore, how did you identify land on a 1938 aerial that may've been land for the Suffolk County Club that reputedly used land of H.B. and G.V. Hollins----eg apparently the aforementioned "Meadowbank" Farm that at one point may've been approximately 600 acres?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Big news!

The club has not found any evidence so far of a Tillie connection. Apparently, this a situation of reliance on "oral history." Strangely enough, the club did not know of the existence of their early minutes in the Harmonie Club's archives at the  NYHS until I reviewed them there and posted the results here. The new owner is considering a restoration of the course. As noted by George Bahto, North Shore could be the first Raynor course.

[TEPaul]

"The club has not found any evidence so far of a Tillie connection. Apparently, this a situation of reliance on "oral history."



Steverino:


Next time you speak to North Shore CC tell them if they still want to rely on "oral history" they now have a third choice. It's not very old oral history but it's sure oral-----eg the guy on this particular thread who is promoting the idea that Robert White actually designed North Shore CC.  Have you ever played Longue Vue in Pittsburgh? Pretty cool course.

"Let's see---we have a choice of Tillinghast, Raynor or White."

THAT's a tough one.

[Phil_the_Author]

Steve,

Great news and wonderful detective work...

[Tom MacWood]

Steve
Did Raynor design it and White construct it or did White design and Raynor construct it?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I should have posted my big news in this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42476.0/

Tom,

My reading of the minutes indicates that North Shore hired Raynor to design the course and that White,in his capacity as superintendent, assisted and cooperated with Raynor. Furthermore, Mac Donald apparently visited the course while it was under construction and may have made some contribution as well, given his relationship with Raynor.

[George_Bahto]

"As noted by George Bahto, North Shore could be the first Raynor course."

I'd rather see it put this way: The course was designed/built as one of a few "first-year Raynor" courses.

During that first year going out on his own the courses, CC Farfield, Westhampton Beach CC, Greenwich and now North Shore were designed. Now who came first? who knows

Before the NSCC information (conformation) surfaced, Westhampton was the first course FINISHED ......  North Shore opening day was 1916, Memorial Day


When Raynor died about 15 clubs called their course the "last Raynor" design.



Anyone care to venture what the last Raynor design was??  


.....  about CBM visiting the course, this being a first year Raynor course, I don't think this would be uncommon.

[Gene Greco]

Anyone care to venture what the last Raynor design was??  

How about Southampton Golf Club? Afterall, it was to be his HOME course.

(Or Cypress Point)

[TEPaul]

George:

Didn't Raynor get sick suddenly in 1926 in Palm Beach and then die? Maybe his last course or design was something in Florida.

[George_Bahto]

florida is a start, Tom

Southampton, Gene, was one of the incomleted courses at the time of his death but not the last design


here is something interesting also.

At the time of his death in Jan 1926 there were nearly 30 courses in various stages of construction (but incomlete) - Fishers Island, Yale, so many of his best courses.

Tom of C & C: how many courses have they built so far, n their careeers?   more or less than what Raynor and Banks had on the boards at the time? Not that it matters but I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

[TEPaul]

"florida is a start, Tom"


Georgie Boy:

What the hell do you mean florida is a start? Do you expect me to like take a boat or something from Florida to the Bahamas or something to sniff aound over there to see if Raynor's last course was over there somewhere?
 

And anyway, these damn golf course architects----I'll tell you, you call them on their cell phone and for all you know they could be sitting in a bunker in Timbuktu talking to you.

Last time I saw Pete Dye was in Clementon and I asked him how P.B. was doing and what he was doing; This is what Pete said:

"Interesting you ask; this is a strange business. P.B. is over in Rome waiting to build a golf course and for about the last month or so he's been doing nothing but hitting golf balls on some strange range within shouting distance of the Vatican. Can you imagine P.B. Dye being right next to the Vatican like that?"

[TEPaul]

I would say C&C have done less in their career than Raynor/Banks had on the drawing boards at the time you mentioned. If that is true it's pretty hard to believe, don't you think because C&C have been together now for probably a lot longer than one might think? But you know their modus---hopefully two at the same time and never more than three. On that note, the remark about why they keep it so low when Bill said he would just find it hard to actually design more than about 54 holes in any single year, just might be one of the neatest and most interesting remarks I've ever heard from a golf course architect. But if they really wanted to up their production which obviously they don't and never have, they could certainly bring me on board. In my present state I'm pretty sure I could manage at least 3 1/2 holes a year and at that rate I could add a course to their career inventory every five years or so.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I've designed 29 courses since 1987-89, depending on whether you start counting at construction or at opening day.  I think Bill Coore has done about 25 ... I was trying to think about that last month and whether he is catching up with me.

Of course I've also designed at least a dozen courses that were never built, and a bunch more holes that we wound up changing out of the routing later on ... a lot of time wasted there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,

Cypress. 

[George_Bahto]

That was the startling thing to me - Raynor wanted to be a hands-on g, totally overrun with courses in 1926 - this the basic output of CC and Tom for each of their  entire careers ...... pretty mind boggling to me.

And image what Raynor and Banks had in the design works, not signed up for, besides all those incomplete courses

Razynor didn;t have any of these "mail-in" courses, neither - he and his cohorts built them.


OK - Raynor's last desing was indeed in Florida - laid out (geez, shouldn't use that term - means too many different things to too many people

and the course was ............    The W C  is the answer  (what??)  it was finished by Banks under the name of the Kelsey Club (but that's not the name Raynor designed it as)

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'll post this here rather than here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42476.105/

The new owner of North Shore will restore the course as a Raynor and an announcement will be made soon as to the identity of the architect who will do the work.

[TEPaul]

Steverino, you magnificent man and researcher/analyst---you are back from the southwest and the dragons and Helia-monsters! Chalk what you just reported on North Shore GC up to the pay-off of some really dedicated "on-the-ground" research not possible over just some home PC!

[Tom MacWood]

Steve
Who deserves or who should share credit for North Shore - Raynor, White, Tilly? Who did what?

[TEPaul]

Steverino:

Don't even consider answering that last post and that jerk who's best deal on here is to ask endless questions of those who do more credbile research work than he ever has or is capable of doing. Just tell the idiot-savant to try calling the God-damn club itself for himself this time rather than asking his stupid questions of us on here that he should already know the answers to like most of us do who have actually followed this interesting subject.

MacWood, I hope and frankly believe that part of the reason Steverino considered doing the trip to the New York Museum where he felt that important North Shore material was contained unbeknowst to the present club's administration was partially to prove the information on here of a jerk like you to be wrong. Thank God he did it and apparently that started you on a sort of reverse reseach/information/analyses slide from which you've never recovered and probably never will leading you to reprise all these old threads in the last 48 hours to recover some modicum of credibilty. Good try Skeebo but it should actually only serve to sink you deeper once some really good researcher/analysts get finished proving your stump-brained research/analysis opinions wrong.