North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[Dale Jackson]

While the discussion about what Tillie did or did not do may be informative, I am much more interested in these Lilliputt Links courses.  Philip or Tom (or whoever) could you explain a bit more about what these were?  I think I get some of it but would appreciate more information.

[TEPaul]

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2009, 08:58:06 PM » Quote  

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Quote from: TEPaul on December 01, 2009, 07:36:18 AM
Tom MacWood:

Who do you think actually designed the comprehensive redo of North Shore's golf course in 1914/15? It appears you are implying it was Robert White. Is that correct?


"TEP
At this point the evidence points toward White. He is the only architect whose name can be positively linked to the project. No one has produced any Tillinghast connection and no one has been able to explain why Tilly did not list the course as one of his designs or redesigns."

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Do you think perhaps the evidence seems to point more to Robert White being the construction foreman and greenskeeper at North Shore in 1914/15 rather than the golf architect? And if not, why do you think not?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I will report my findings  in the near future. I visited the NY Historical Society yesterday and reviewed the contents of the North Shore and Harmonie Club records as contained in volumes 29,36,37 & 62. This thread has caught the attention of some North Shore members as they have been doing some independent research of their own. I will forward the results of my investigation to the club as I believe it is the professional thing to do. After then, a full report will be forthcoming.

[Tom MacWood]

While the discussion about what Tillie did or did not do may be informative, I am much more interested in these Lilliputt Links courses.  Philip or Tom (or whoever) could you explain a bit more about what these were?  I think I get some of it but would appreciate more information.

Dale
I don't know that much about the Lilliput courses. From what I understand they were pitch & putt courses, which are normally shorter than par-3 courses.

[TEPaul]

"I will report my findings  in the near future. I visited the NY Historical Society yesterday and reviewed the contents of the North Shore and Harmonie Club records as contained in volumes 29,36,37 & 62. This thread has caught the attention of some North Shore members as they have been doing some independent research of their own. I will forward the results of my investigation to the club as I believe it is the professional thing to do. After then, a full report will be forthcoming."



Steverino Shaeffer:

YOU'RE THE MAN!!!

Good for you for going to NYC and the NY Historical Society and actually carefully checking out the records of North Shore GC the way you did; and as well as contacting and establishing a good relationship with the golf club as you have and plan to.

I wish some of these people on here who ply only the Internet for just material such as old newspaper articles would get used to doing the same thing you have so far for North Shore. You did the whole thing the right way, and in my book, that means going right to those old contemporaneous club records and the club itself. These people on here who refuse to do that and only seem interested in seriously questioning and then concluding that these clubs got it wrong, particularly in the beginning with their contemporaneous records and architectural attributions, is getting a bit grating and more than a little counter-productive ultimately.

[Phil_the_Author]

Lilliput Links were of several types. In his 1917 advertising booklet "Planning A Golf Course" Tilly wrote, "On the last page opf this booklet, miniature courses - Lilliput Links are described..." He described how these were generally "these priovide excellent approaching practice and a place where women and children may learn the rudiments of the game in privacy..."

But these were not limited to pitch and putt type courses. We know this because on the following page in this section is a sketch that he referred to next of the Roy Rainey Estate course (The estate is now the site of the Huntington Crescent CC). It contains three green sites, 6 tees, hazards & alps and even a dog-leg par-4 that configures to make 6 holes on 6-acre piece of land. (Visit the Tillinghast Association website at www.tillinghast.net and you can see this and all pages from the booklet)There were other miniature estate courses that he designed and built with much longer holes as part of them. Tilly included these in his 1925 advertisement under the heading "Lilliput courses". Tilly advertised and marketed this work separately and jointly from and with his normal work.

On December 3, 1915, the Florida Times Union reported on the opening of the Lilliput Links at the Atlantic Beach Hotel (Hotel Commodore). "It lies so near the ocean that a strong player might drive a ball from the eighth or ninth tees into the surf." The nine hole course was 558 yards in length with the longest hole being 104 yards and the shortest 33.

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

I was wrong about Niagara Falls CC not being listed. It is listed under 'examinations and reports' as Lewiston CC. In one of his advertisements Nicol Thompson also referred to the course as Lewiston Heights CC. The $250 figure makes more sense in light of a examination and/or report.

The first mention of an 18-hole course at Mountain View Farm was August 1926 in the NY Times. When the Zukor estate was being sold in 1948 it was reported that the clubhouse, pool and other facilities were built in 1925 (Phil and the Tillinghast Assocation have 1920 as the date). Zukor hired Leo Diegel as his private professional in 1926 as well. I think its reasonable to conclude construction of the course did begin until after the list was made sometime in 1925 or early 1926.

Seven down and three to go.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

Do you think perhaps the evidence seems to point more to Robert White being the construction foreman and greenskeeper at North Shore in 1914/15 rather than the golf architect? And if not, why do you think not?

TEP
For the same reasons I gave you several days ago: At this point the evidence points toward White. He is the only architect whose name can be positively linked to the project. No one has produced any Tillinghast connection and no one has been able to explain why Tilly did not list the course as one of his designs or redesigns.

Why do you believe Tilly did not list the course as one of his designs or redesigns?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Thanks for your last post making what was on this post somewhat irrelevent. However, did it ever occur to you that the architect of North Shore in 1914/15 may've been neither White nor Tillinghast? And if it didn't occur to you did it ever occur to you that the answer to this question of who the architect of North Shore was in 1914/15 may be contained in North Shore's club records and meeting minutes from 1914/16 (sort of like who the architect of Merion and Myopia was is contained in those clubs' contemporaneous records?). And if it didn't occur to you, why didn't it? Do you really think the truth in these kinds of things is only contained in various magazine and newspaper articles you may find access to and put on this website?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
It did occur to me the architect may've been neither White or Tilly, which is why I wrote at this point the evidence....

It has been my experience in doing all sorts of historical research that there are many good sources of information including but not limited to club records - the more information the better.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

In your post #25 there is a small clipping from 1914 about Robert White laying out a course on the South Shore of Long Island at Islip. Do you have any idea what the name of that course was?

[Tom MacWood]

Suffolk County CC

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost?
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

According to the Wolferts Roost CC history a civil engineer from Albany - Harold Andrews - designed the original nine in 1915, and Tilly was engaged in 1921 to add another nine and redesign the original. The Tillinghast Association has no date for AWT's involvement. Starting in 1917 the Golf Course Guide claims an additional nine is under construction and the whole course when completed will be 6120 yds. This claim continues for several years in subsequent Guides; 1925 is the first Guide to list a full 18 (I have seen the 1923 Guide, but not the 1924 Guide). I have not been able to figure out who did what in 1917 or the reason for the apparent delay.

In 1935 during his PGA tour Tilly visited WRCC. This is what he wrote:

"At noon, Jack Gormley called me and took me to Wolfert's Roost CC. Here I talked to with HJ Crawford and others of the green committee as well as their greenkeeper, J. Louis Gregory, who informed me that his first was under me twenty five years ago. At Wolfert's Roost their problem concerns two one-shot holes in sequence, the 9th and the 10th and the 11th, a truly bad hole of 276 yards. My solution requires only the construction of one new green an three new teeing grounds. Here again they are genuinely pleased with the service and very openly voiced their gratification."

Tilly does not mention any previous involvement with the club or previous involvement in the design of the golf course.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

What is that partial clipping about Robert White making plans for the laying out of Suffolk Country Club from? Was the Suffolk County course near Westbrook GC or was it an evolution of Westbrook, or was it begun as a separate entity around 1914?

Also, what do you know about the life and times of Aleck Bauer? Was he Alexander (Aleck) Bauer (1962-1944) of the Bauer and Black Co. originally of Chicago that pioneered to some extent the suspensory bandage, not to even mention some involvement in the development of the jockstrap? 

[Tom MacWood]

In all the article there was never any mention of a connection with Westbrook. I know Westbrook and Suffolk County Club were both in East Islip, but I'm not sure how far or near they were. The nine at Westbrook predated SCCC by a number of years (and lasted longer too). I suspect SCCC was near the location of Timber Point.

I knew Bauer was born in Germany and was the founder of a surgical dressing manufacturer in Chicago...and thats about it.

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost?
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

Suburban CC of Baltimore dates back to before the turn of the century. Although they have no direct evidence the club dates Tilly's involvement with the design to the original date in the 1890s. I don't believe Tilly had anything to do with this course. In 1922 he designed the Suburban CC in Elizabeth, NJ. I believe this attribution in Baltimore is a case of mistaken identity.

[TEPaul]

"In all the article there was never any mention of a connection with Westbrook. I know Westbrook and Suffolk County Club were both in East Islip, but I'm not sure how far or near they were. The nine at Westbrook predated SCCC by a number of years (and lasted longer too). I suspect SCCC was near the location of Timber Point."


Tom MacWood:

Not that it means all that much from a golf architectural perspective, but I think these various clubs---eg Westbrook, Suffolk County and Timber Point all might have some interesting connections.

It appears that Westbrook GC, a nine hole course and club, was built very early, perhaps just after the original 12 hole Shinnecock by Willie Dunn. It seems it might have been part of the substantial Bayard Cutting property, also called "Westbrook, in East Islip. Cutting had bought the property from Pierre Lorrilard (who had created the massive estate) when Lorrilard bought Tuxedo Park and moved there in 1888, also creating a golf course (perhaps also by Willie Dunn).

H.B. Hollins, Marion's father, was the first president of Westbrook G.C., and it was where Marion learned to play golf under the tutelage of Arthur Griffth, a professional and clubmaker Hollins had met at Royal St George's and brought to America with him, even though her family had a three hole course on their massive estate, "Meadowbank" that was apparently next to Westbrook GC.

According to that clipping you posted, the Suffolk County GC and course was created on H.B. Hollins and G.V. Hollins' land (perhaps 115 acres somewhere on the 600 acre "Meadowbank Farm"?) in 1914, which would make sense as Hollins went bankrupt in 1913.

In the early 1920s the exclusive membership of Westbrook GC decided they needed an 18 hole course and so they bought land in the vicinity, perhaps another part of Cutting's or Hollins' property and created the ultra-exclusive Timber Point (membership limited to 100).  

(Or some versions thereof)  

[Tom MacWood]

Here is another article on Suffolk County which may foreshadow the White-Raynor-Macdonald connection.

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost?
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club
North Shore

Marble Island was originally the Lake Champlain Club (the name changed some time after WWII). LCC was formed in 1919. It is yet to be determined when exactly the golf course was constructed, some sources say 1919, other sources say 1925. The first mention of the course in the golf course guide is 1930. The Tillinghast Association has no date, nor any mention of the club's original name. If Tilly was involved it was likely after 1925.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Why do you suppose that 1915 NY Times article you posted (post #118) on Suffolk County GC that goes into a good deal of detail about the course and who was involved does not mention Robert White at all when that clipping you posted earlier from a 1914 article on Suffolk County GC on this thread does mention white as the architect.

Would you assume that the later date of the 1915 NY Times article might logically be a better, more accurate and credible source of detailed information on the architect of the course? Perhaps we will find that Suffolk County GC might be essentially the same deal as North Shore GC about which you originally thought it designed by Robert White. I wonder if the club records of Suffolk County GC (if they exist) might prove it to be a Raynor too? Of course, I don't even know if Suffolk County GC or the course exists anymore; do you?

Obviously the site of the Suffolk County GC course was somewhere on Hollins' 600 acre "Meadowbank" farm.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
The second article does not mention who was to design the golf course, only who was on the committee who selected the site. At the time Robert White's name given (in the first article) as being engaged to layout the course the site had already been selected and purchased. SCCC does not exist, and I don't believe the project was ever completed.

I don't think there was any mystery about the proposed course being on Hollins' land...every article I've read states that.

[TEPaul]

"SCCC does not exist, and I don't believe the project was ever completed."


Tom MacWood:

I agree, I don't think it was either. I don't think there is any record of a Suffolk County G.C.

I'm interested in Robert White anyway but also in his architecture because I've always liked his Longue Vue. It seems he had an odd or sort of spotty career in golf architecture. I see a mention that he did a NLE nine hole course in Massachussets (North Salem) in 1895 and then nothing else for over twenty years. Even after that his production seemed inconsistent time-wise but maybe that was because as some have said he was a pretty good businessman in some other things to do with golf.

Aleck Bauer, by the way, was of the Bauer & Black Co. that was apparently something of a pioneer in suspensory products such as bandages et al. It looks like he may've been of the second generation in it and even something of an inventor in that basic line, and the company certainly did have regional offices other than in Chicago so it seems it was pretty big back then.

[Tom MacWood]

I don't know anything about North Salem - I've never heard of that course. I think White was more active than what is generally known, starting with his last years at Ravisloe right through to his retirement at Myrtle Beach.

[TEPaul]

"I don't know anything about North Salem - I've never heard of that course."


Well, I haven't either but I sure can tell you it was close to the courses we do know about from back then including Myopia which White was at for a year or two. It's Boston's North Shore and that is basically where golf first began in the 1890s in Boston and Massachussets. White was an early arrival from abroad.