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Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 11:10:29 AM »
~

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 11:22:23 AM »
Tom MacWood

Nice stuff but why do the club minutes, which you have never seen, and Quirin apparently has, reflect a payment to Tillinghast of $75000? Did White have a practice of making plastic models of greens?

North Shore attributes the course to Tillinghast. Take this up with them or The Tillinghast Association. By the way, just because NS did not appear in an ad doesn't mean anything to me. Other courses are now being attributed to Tillinghast to this very day. Didn't Phil Young post recently about a new finding that he will write about in the next newsletter of the Tillinghast Association ?

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 11:32:02 AM »
Steve
Have you read the club minutes?

I don't know if White used plasticine or not; I'm not certain when Tilly began using it either.  That was a fairly new procedure in 1914. I believe Simpson and Fowler were the first. Fowler contributed to Bauer's book and so I would assume AB was aware of its use.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 12:23:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2009, 11:37:13 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I would also say that's a lot of material you just posted but I'm not sure what your point is with it all regarding who redesigned the former Glenwood golf course into what became the North Shore GC golf course. I agree with Steve Shaffer----eg someone should look at those club minutes and records that apparently Quirin and the club was looking at that led them to attribute the architecture the way they did.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:39:09 AM by TEPaul »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2009, 11:43:52 AM »
I have not read the club minutes but I'm relying on Quirin's piece from his book. Take it up with him. Give him a call. He'll talk to you. He talked to me when I asked him a few years ago for information and recently when I had some questions about Quaker Ridge. He even talked to Ran. See his Feature Interview.

I'd like to read the club minutes in NY but I'm very busy in December and will be leaving for Arizona in early January and won't return until April.

White's article was from a Greenkeeper's perspective. It says nothing about designing the greens at NS.

 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2009, 12:35:56 PM »
I have not read the club minutes but I'm relying on Quirin's piece from his book. Take it up with him. Give him a call. He'll talk to you. He talked to me when I asked him a few years ago for information and recently when I had some questions about Quaker Ridge. He even talked to Ran. See his Feature Interview.

I'd like to read the club minutes in NY but I'm very busy in December and will be leaving for Arizona in early January and won't return until April.

White's article was from a Greenkeeper's perspective. It says nothing about designing the greens at NS.

 

Steve
It seems to me you are relying on a lot of speculation....speculating that Dr. Quirrin read the minutes, speculating the minutes mention Tilly was involved, speculating that White's plasticine models were Tilly's and speculating that Dr. Q meant 9/1914 and not 9/1915. As you know Dr. Q claimed Tilly was first engaged in 9/1915 or seven months after White began the reconstruction. I've not seen or read a single contemporaneous source that associates Tilly with the project...in fact Tilly was a relatively unknown in 1914.

I believe Aleck Bauer's book was the first American book written about golf architecture (in 1913). Wasn't Ravisloe a prominent Jewish club in Chicago? Do you think there is any chance the members of Harmonie would have contacted Bauer for advice?

What projects was Tilly working on in 1914? I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why Tilly did not include North Shore in his very thorough list of designs and redesigns produced in the mid-20s. Anyone?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 12:39:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »
Tom MacWood


Amazing that you call my reliance on the work of Quirin as "speculation." He is the historian of the MGA and author of club histories and other noted golf books. Do you think he fabricated the Tillinghast references? Do you think NS had some ulterior motive in attributing ITS course to Tillinghast? I think you owe an apology to both.

Are there contemporay accounts that White was HIRED  by NS? Tilly hired White at Shawnee. NS hired Tilly.  Tilly hired White at NS. Your purported connection between White and Ravisloe and NS is speculation. Did White ever advertise NS as one of his designs?


I suggest that you contact Don Zucker and tell him the bad news about his recent purchase:

www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/developer-buys-north-shore-country-club-for-12-5m-1.1602746
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 05:10:05 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2009, 06:20:35 PM »
Steve:

I wouldn't worry about that last response from Tom MacWood. His last post is just another implication that others are speculating followed by a series of questions from him asking others to tell him why Tillinghast did not include North Shore on any lists of his courses. That is obviously asking others to speculate on that question and if he doesn't get the kind of answers  he is obviously looking for (which would also be speculation by others :) ) which appears to be that Tillinghast was not involved with North Shore he will just mention again that it is speculation on the part of those answering him!  

I think I plan on going to Long Island perhaps in December to do some research at GCGC for any heretofore unincluded items on the Lesley Cup history and maybe some more research at The Creek. As you know North Hills is in the area and I'll see if I can go over there and get a look at that material about club records or club minutes that's been menitoined on here. I know Bill Quirin and have spoken to him about a number of things anyway including his good history books on the Lesley Cup. I have his number and I'll call him about it.

I think this discussion on here about Tillinghast and any roll he had with North Shore should just wait for that----as anything else at this time probably is still somewhat speculative, at least in somebody's mind.  ;)

But as I said earlier today if there is something in NS's club records that's really contemporaneous about Tillinghast from the time in question that matches what the club and Quirin reported about Tillinghast that would pretty much seal the Tillinghast attribution story on North Shore in my mind. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see some others on here still question it and disagree. I saw that happen with some contemporaneous board meeting minutes and a contemporaneous committee report on Merion East and I saw it happen again on here with Myopia.

Unfortunately on here it too often just gets down to a question of someone's word against someone else's word. But you're right that material mentioned that seems to be in the NS records or archives needs to be looked at carefully first.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 06:26:28 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2009, 06:36:43 PM »
"........in fact Tilly was a relatively unknown in 1914."


I doubt anyone remotely conversant with golf architecture in the northeast in 1914 would say that Shawnee on the Delaware by Tillinghast was relatively unknown, not to mention the visibility of Tillinghast's constant articles in a number of publications!  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2009, 06:45:17 PM »
Great discussion so far, hopefully it'll stay that way.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George_Bahto

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2009, 07:37:16 PM »
Well. given all this "new" information, I'm taking North Shore off the list of Seth Raynor golf courses


.........   and certainly I congratulate who ever built some of those great greens
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2009, 08:38:41 PM »
      To answer the question about Tilly not including North Shore on his list of courses in his 1925 advertising brochure... It isn't the only one he didn't include. There are a number of courses ranging from original designs to renovations that are not on that list. It is a large one but by no means complete.
      As to why he didn't include North Shore in it, there are any number of "speculative" reasons ranging from he forgot to he purposefully chose not to.
      Also, Tilly first used models in his design work in 1909 when he began his design of Shawnee. What has been forgotten in this discussion when the subject of models have been brought up is just how difficult they were to make from plasticene. It took a great deal of skill and artistic talent which is why most architects either didn't use them or hired someone to make them for them. Tilly personally made them and expected the workers to match exactly on the ground the details he put in the models.
      Robert White was hired in 1913 by Tilly in his position as Shawnee CC Club Secretary. White was not used to redesign Shawnee; Tilly did. The first redesign was also a complete course rerouting and added 50+ yards to the course. The redesign and beginning of the work began in the summer of 1912 and continued through 1913. White came to Shawnee when the work was nearly complete and he was specifically hired because he was an outstanding turf specialist. Tilly wrote in the American Golfer about his hiring and stated that the "grow-in of the turf" of the new course was handed over to him to care for. This not only shows that the design and construction work was completed but that he was viewed by all at that time as one of the foremost greenkeeper/turf experts in the country.
      White was later used by Tilly to oversee construction on a number of his designs and Tilly would actually aid White when he finally opened his own design business. To this day there are a number of White courses that believed that Tilly had actually designed them and White had built them when, in fact, White had been aided by Tilly to get the job. A good example of this is the Wolf Hollow CC which was the host site for the Eastern Open in the early 1920s. There was even a discussion on this exact subject regarding Tilly at Wolf Hollow on here a couple of years ago.
      White wasn't the only person who worked for Tilly that he aided in starting out on his own at that time. Willard Wilkinson was another. Tilly actually turned over three contracted new designs to him for that specific purpose.
      Finally, the Harmonie Club records at the New York Historical Society are quite detailed and specific. They include "The Minutes of the Board of Governors of the North Shore Country Club is composed of typed papers inserted into a three hole binder. The Country Club was established March 13, 1914 for the benefit of the Harmonie Club members and its Board of Governors was composed of Harmonie Club officers. The minutes include budgets, expenses, renovation plans, and description of the grounds."
      Now even though the North Shore CC was legally established on 3/13/1914, as an entity it was in existence for nearly a year previously. Its purpose was to locate land or a club that the members could purchase on Long Island to serve as a private Country Club for use of the entire membership. We know this because the archive also specifically contains the "Minutes Board of Governors North Shore Country Club, Inc, 1913 March 31 - 1918 November 26."
      One of the reasons that the records of the Harmonie Club can be trusted in this area is because of who the membership was and how, in years to come, they would use their historical records to protect their membership and community in the face of persecution. They therefore take GREAT pride in their history and are quite secure in its accuracy.
      I intend for this to be my one and only comment on this thread as I certainly want to see the discussion continue on in the cooperative spirit that it has been maintaining...
    
I made a correction for those who noticed. Tilly began making plasticene models in 1909 NOT 1919 as I mistakenly Typo'd!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:35:55 PM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2009, 09:42:44 PM »
Tom MacWood


Amazing that you call my reliance on the work of Quirin as "speculation." He is the historian of the MGA and author of club histories and other noted golf books. Do you think he fabricated the Tillinghast references? Do you think NS had some ulterior motive in attributing ITS course to Tillinghast? I think you owe an apology to both.

Are there contemporay accounts that White was HIRED  by NS? Tilly hired White at Shawnee. NS hired Tilly.  Tilly hired White at NS. Your purported connection between White and Ravisloe and NS is speculation. Did White ever advertise NS as one of his designs?


I suggest that you contact Don Zucker and tell him the bad news about his recent purchase:

www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/developer-buys-north-shore-country-club-for-12-5m-1.1602746


Steve
I have no issue with you relying on Dr. Q's work; my issue is with your numerous speculations. It seems to me for whatever reason you are relying heavily on speculation to connect all your dots, as opposed to known or reported facts.  

I have not seen any report about anyone being hired by NS to design the course, but there is no doubt NS did hire White, that he was employed by the club and that he carried out the work, which is more than anyone can claim regarding Tilly.

Where did you read Tilly hired White at Shawnee...didn't Mr. Worthington call the shots? To my knowledge White never advertised any of his designs. Why do you think Tilly did not take credit for the course?

Phil
What other courses did Tilly not include on his list? When did White open his design business?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:51:01 PM by Tom MacWood »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2009, 10:09:38 PM »
Does this mean anything?

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/robert-white.html

I have no doubt that White was at NS. He was hired by Tilly to oversee the construction of his design.He was a Greenkeeper and golf pro by trade. He worked for Tilly at Shawnee before.He was hired by NS to be the club professional. Why else would the NS minutes reflect the payment to Tilly? Was he a good guy who happened to show up there and present a bill and NS paid it?

It's all there in the minutes that Quirin used to write his piece on NS in his book. Call him to see if he fabricated his piece or omitted any other mention of White's name.

Perhaps I'll squeeze in a trip to NY next month and review the binder in which the minutes are located and do some good old fashioned actual hands on research. Want to meet me there?

In the meantime, I'm sure Don Zucker is waiting with baited breath for your missive.

This attribution problem has shown up before on various courses. I remember all the Philmont threads showing that Park,Jr. did the design work and that Gordon MAY have been Toomey & Flynn's construction manager on site and that no Flynn drawings exist for the course and that a member, Strouse, oversaw the construction for club and made in ground design changes while the course was being constructed.Even Bob Labbance danced around this issue in his club history. All of this evidence was presented to Philmont. Guess what? They didn't care. It's still a Flynn course to them. I suspect that the result will be the same at NS with Tillinghast only they have records that are discoverable.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:40:54 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2009, 10:11:39 PM »
"Well. given all this "new" information, I'm taking North Shore off the list of Seth Raynor golf courses."


Uncle Georgie-Porgie;

What "NEW" information exactly are you referring to?


TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2009, 10:16:43 PM »
"Also, Tilly first used models in his design work in 1919 when he began his design of Shawnee. What has been forgotten in this discussion when the subject of models have been brought up is just how difficult they were to make from plasticene."

PHIL:

Correct that fast because today we are dealing in the world of GOOGLE reporting where nothing might come off (that is incorrect).

With Shawnee you must have meant 1909, and not 1919, RIGHT??

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2009, 10:37:28 PM »
Correct Tom,

It was 1909 & I made the correction...

DMoriarty

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2009, 11:00:47 PM »
Don't know much of anything about North Shore, but found the conversation interesting.   Unfortunately some of the usual ugliness seems to be creeping in.  As a lay reader, I have a few questions that I hope will get the conversation back on track.

A few posters (Steve and Phillip, for example) seem to be claiming or at least implying that the information about Tillie's receipt of payment from North Shore came directly from the club's old meeting minutes.  

- Has anyone seen those minutes?  If so, what do the minutes say about the issue?

- Steve, did Mr. Quirin write that he got the specific information about the payment to Tillie from the minutes?  Or is it possible that he got the information from a source other than the minutes?

Quote
This attribution problem has shown up before on various courses. I remember all the Philmont threads showing that Park,Jr. did the design work and that Gordon MAY have been Toomey & Flynn's construction manager on site and that no Flynn drawings exist for the course and that a member, Strouse, oversaw the construction for club and made in ground design changes while the course was being constructed.Even Bob Labbance danced around this issue in his club history. All of this evidence was presented to Philmont. Guess what? They didn't care. It's still a Flynn course to them. I suspect that the result will be the same at NS with Tillinghast only they have records that are discoverable.

I am trying to understand your point here . . . are you suggesting that historical research isn't worthwhile because some clubs are less interested in the truth than they are in preserving their widely accepted legends?  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2009, 11:04:24 PM »
Your version is contrary to MGA's historian's version that I have:

"... The original golf course proved inadequte for North Shore's membership. And so a relatively young (architectuarally speaking) A.W. Tillinghast was engaged in September 1915 to revise the original layout. Which he did, retaining only 5 holes of the original 18, including the present 8th, which was among the original 9. It is said, though, that 1000 trees were were felled to give the 16th its dogleg configuration. Tillinghast's fee,construction included, amounted to $75,000...."

Steve
There is no way any golf architect's fee was anywhere near $75,000 in 1914. In fact I doubt there were many new golf courses built for that amount of money in 1914, and lets remember North Hills was a redesign, albeit a major redesign. While we are speculating I will speculate the $75,000 figure comes from the following article from April 17, 1914.


Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2009, 11:10:50 PM »
Regarding Phil's speculation that Tilly actually designed Wolf Hollow and White built it, here is advertisement from 1924 right after the course opened and a photo (and caption) from Metropolitan Golfer magazine (August 1924).

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2009, 11:14:45 PM »
"Steve
There is no way any golf architect's fee was anywhere near $75,000 in 1914."

Tom MacWood:

You definitely have a pretty bad problem with either reading or reading comprehension. It's actually not that hard if one just concentrates and tries! Steve Shaffer did not say $75,000 for an architectural fee----he said $75,000 for an architectural fee and redesign construction of most all of an existing golf course.

What is going on with you Tom MacWood----you keep pretty much totally misunderstanding what people say to you post after post and time after time after time? What's going on? Truly?  

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2009, 11:18:29 PM »
Tom MacWood

Nice stuff but why do the club minutes, which you have never seen, and Quirin apparently has, reflect a payment to Tillinghast of $75000? Did White have a practice of making plastic models of greens?


TEP
They apparently allocated $100,000, of which $75,000 was for the new clubhouse.

Robeert White, who worked for North Shore, built the golf course...why would you pay Tilly $75,000 for the design and construction with being the case?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:21:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2009, 11:21:39 PM »
Tom MacWood:

If you want to argue with Phil Young about some Tillinghast attribution then do it but why don't you take your post #44 about a course ten years after North Shore off this thread about the North Shore GC? 

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2009, 11:29:32 PM »
"TEP
They apparently allocated $100,000, of which $75,000 was for the new clubhouse.

Robeert White, who worked for North Shore, built the golf course...why would you pay Tilly $75,000 for the design and construction with being the case?"


Tom MacWood:

Not even considering that what you said just above is pretty inarticulate I really do think the best policy with this subject is for someone to just go to North Shore and carefully read these historical club records or archives mentioned on here above. It seems, as is pretty usual, no one can expect you to do that. It looks like it will probably be me and next month when I'm up there in the vicinity for other things to do with golf or architectural research.

Let's just leave it at that for the time being, shall we?  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2009, 11:55:51 PM »
Let's just leave it at that for the time being, shall we? 

Yes, TEPaul, good idea!  Since we are really arguing (in this case) about whether the MGA history is correct, or the minutes are correct, it does seem quite wise to just go to the source of the debate between Steve and TMac.

And, how nice of you to volunteer! 

I once toured many of the LI golf courses. I don't recall seeing this one, and like you, I am distressed that I must have driven by it and not taken notice, or that it didn't make my cut list given the time I had.  There is just a lot of great golf courses to see on LI, aren't there?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach