North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
It is pretty well document there have been a lot of strong egos amongst the top golf architects, but I don't think White was one of them. He was a fairly low profile golf architect through his career, and was voted by his professional peers the first president of the PGA. I get the impression he was well grounded, well respected and well liked.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Was Mackie involved at Hollywood.

What's interesting about the article is the reference to the course being changed by White, to the point that it was beyond recognition.

Yet, today's course is so blatantly Raynor, that one has to deduce that Raynor completely redesigned whatever was there.

[Tom MacWood]

Mark,

Was Mackie involved at Hollywood.

What's interesting about the article is the reference to the course being changed by White, to the point that it was beyond recognition.

Yet, today's course is so blatantly Raynor, that one has to deduce that Raynor completely redesigned whatever was there.

Pat
Wasn't the course restored in recent years?

[Tom MacWood]

I'm wondering if White was an egomaniac.

Interestingly, the club got rid of him shortly after this article was published.

White's quotes don't seem to make sense. Isaac Mackie was the only other party who was documented to have been there early on. White certainly wasn't there after a civil engineer had been working on the course.

Mark
Raynor was a civil engineer.

[Mark Hissey]

I'm wondering if White was an egomaniac.

Interestingly, the club got rid of him shortly after this article was published.

White's quotes don't seem to make sense. Isaac Mackie was the only other party who was documented to have been there early on. White certainly wasn't there after a civil engineer had been working on the course.

Mark
Raynor was a civil engineer.

I was fully aware of that Tom.

My statement maybe had the wrong emphasis. There is no documentation of a civil engineer working at North Shore before White got there. Raynor arrived there after White had assumed his duties as the Golf Pro and Greenskeeper.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Was Mackie involved at Hollywood.

What's interesting about the article is the reference to the course being changed by White, to the point that it was beyond recognition.

Yet, today's course is so blatantly Raynor, that one has to deduce that Raynor completely redesigned whatever was there.

Pat
Wasn't the course restored in recent years?

I'm unaware of any substantive work to the greens.

I played there a good number of years ago in the MGA Mixed Championship, but I was focused on other things during the course of my round.

Perhaps those more familiar with any work that was done there can enlighten us.

[Mark Hissey]

Work starts tomorrow.

[Tom MacWood]

Work on what? What is the plan?

[Phil_the_Author]

Terrific News Mark!

[Tom MacWood]

What is terrific? What are they doing?

[Phil_the_Author]

Patience Tom. Mark will answer you when he has a chance...

[Tom MacWood]

You and Mark have no idea what they are doing.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom Doak  knows what he'll be doing.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I am well aware of exactly what they are doing. Mark certainly better be aware as he is managing the project...

You should also know what is being done as it has been WRITTEN ABOUT in this thread quite a while ago including the announcement that Tom Doak was hired for the project.

For once, Tom, don't be insulting and showing your own ignorance and simply accept that Mark knows what is going on even if you refuse to believe that I do. Otherwise, how could he have stated that "Work starts tomorrow..."?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

See post #160 above by Tom Doak

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Since Steve was far more gracious than I, here is what Tom Doak posted in reply #160:

"Regardless of who should get the most credit for the present course [my guess is Raynor], I have been hired by Mr. Zucker to figure out what to do with it now.

"There are a few great greens but there are also some holes that are disappointing, so I do not expect this to be a strict restoration project ... most likely we will redesign some parts of the course to try and improve it.  As you all know, I don't take on many projects of that description, but in this case I don't believe that it is one of Raynor's best courses, and I agree with Mr. Zucker that some redesign work would help him attract some new members to make the club viable again.  The extent of this work is still to be determined, but we will probably start work on it in the fall, perhaps even sooner if we can find some things that won't disrupt play too much."

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Since Steve was far more gracious than I, here is what Tom Doak posted in reply #160:

"Regardless of who should get the most credit for the present course [my guess is Raynor], I have been hired by Mr. Zucker to figure out what to do with it now.

"There are a few great greens but there are also some holes that are disappointing, so I do not expect this to be a strict restoration project ... most likely we will redesign some parts of the course to try and improve it.  As you all know, I don't take on many projects of that description, but in this case I don't believe that it is one of Raynor's best courses, and I agree with Mr. Zucker that some redesign work would help him attract some new members to make the club viable again.  The extent of this work is still to be determined, but we will probably start work on it in the fall, perhaps even sooner if we can find some things that won't disrupt play too much."

Based on reply #160 could anyone tell me what they are doing?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom Doak  knows what he'll be doing.

This is the same Tom Doak who is being criticized on another current for what he did (redesign) and what he didn't do at GCGC (restore). Do you know what is plan is NS?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip Young,

Redesigning a course for the purpose of attracting new members is a mission frought with danger........ architecturally.

In theory, if a or the primary purpose is to design to attract new members, wouldn't the resulting design/redesign be a tribute to, or incorporate the features that are most popular currently ?

We may love Biarritz's, Redan's, Shorts, Double Plateau's, Road Holes and Edens, but, does the prospective audience/member they're trying to attract find these designs appealing ?

I've always liked North Shore, but it seems as though it may become an architectural lab experiment.

Can you smell the ether ?  

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat, why are you addressing your comments to me? I have absolutely nothing at all to do with any advice, consultation, designing or decision-making at North Shore. Shouldn't it be directed at either Tom Doak or Mark Hissey?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Did you post reply # 901 or did Tom Doak or Mark Hissey ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

I posted #901. But yourreply was an attack on what was written within it, which was written by Tom Doak in post #160.

I think Tom has more than enough experience to take into account your concerns. My questions are why do you have them simply, because Tom & Mark have stated that the course is going to be worked on including redesigning of certain holes? Isn't your questioning a pronouncement that the rdesign will make the course worse? And without having the slightest clue as to what he is going to do?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

It wasn't an attack, it was merely a comment.

Why so defensive ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

My apologies for reading more into it than what was there. It came on the heels of Tom Macwood's comment, "This is the same Tom Doak who is being criticized on another current for what he did (redesign) and what he didn't do at GCGC (restore). Do you know what is plan is NS?" that is an obviously negative one and most certainly implying that what is being done at NS is a mistake without having any idea at all as to what is planned.

I saw yours as criticism that certainly would be premature and unfounded. It may be that Tom will screw the course up badly, but I deriously doubt it.

That is why i reacted as I did. I was wrong and apologize.

Phil

[Mark Hissey]

A quick update. Tom is on the top of his game once again.

The work done so far has been nothing short of spectacular. The first hole and the eighteenth hole have been completely swapped. The new 17th and 18th holes will be a superb par three and a long par five instead of two fairly non-descript par fours. The sixth and seventh look wonderful so far but still have work before they are completely finished.

There may be more work to come after this year, but this years work has been fantastic.