North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[DMoriarty]

David,

As I wrote in #59 above:

"The truth lies in the minutes of North Shore located in the archives of the NY Historical Society.If I can, I'm going to squeeze in a day from my busy December schedule to visit there. Dr. Quirin had access to those minutes;otherwise, he would not have written what he did about Tilly being paid $75000 for his services including construction. See my post 9 above."

As of now, I'm planning a trip to NY this Friday if I can fit it in to view the minutes. I'll certainly advise thereafter or whenever I can visit.

Sorry Steve.  My fault.  I tend to gloss over or ignore posts to or from TEPaul. 

Isn't it possible that Dr. Quirin relied on sources other than the minutes?  For instance, couldn't he have arrived at the same conclusion from the articles TomM has posted? 

Anyway, I appreciate your willingness and effort to actually take a look at the documents and let the contents be known.   

[TEPaul]

"I tend to gloss over or ignore posts to or from TEPaul."

I've been aware of that for some years now and that is precisely why you have never understood the accurate architectural history of Merion and why you very likely never will.  But don't worry about that because I don't think anyone cares what you think about it, if in fact they ever did.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David,

In response to your question above,I wrote in #50 :

"I might add that Quirin's piece starts out in quotes from Goldmark about the history of Harmonie. Quirin goes on to say "And so wrote Emil Goldmark..." Obviously, one can draw the conclusion that Quirin actually saw something in writing to put it in quotes,ie, the minutes. I'll gladly fax what I have to anyone who wants it as my daughter has the scanner that was previously in my house. Just PM me."

Goldmark was the President of the Harmonie Club in 1913.I now have it (Quirin's piece)scanned for emailing. I find it surprising that no one took me up on my offer to fax.

[DMoriarty]

David,

In response to your question above,I wrote in #50 :

"I might add that Quirin's piece starts out in quotes from Goldmark about the history of Harmonie. Quirin goes on to say "And so wrote Emil Goldmark..." Obviously, one can draw the conclusion that Quirin actually saw something in writing to put it in quotes,ie, the minutes. I'll gladly fax what I have to anyone who wants it as my daughter has the scanner that was previously in my house. Just PM me."

Goldmark was the President of the Harmonie Club in 1913.I now have it (Quirin's piece)scanned for emailing. I find it surprising that no one took me up on my offer to fax.

I must not have been clear and apologize for that.  I saw this post above and don't doubt that Dr. Quirin must have seen the minutes as you said.  But that doesn't answer the question of whether or not the information in question came from the minutes, does it?  Does he indicate that this specific information about hiring and paying Tillinghast came from the minutes?   Is the information in quotes?   

I don't mean to pester you, Steve, but it seems like most of the arguments on this website could be avoided if we were all more careful to fully state and explain the sources of our information.  Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is just a PARTIAL list of courses NOT INCLUDED. They range from original designs to renovations and additions to examinations with proposals to Lilliputt Links, just as Tilly included in his list. All were worked on BEFORE the advertisement was published:

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

Phil
Thanks for providing a list of courses. Could you give the date of Tilly's involvement for these courses (if you know it)? By the way Tilly did list Atlantic Beach and Glen Ridge so you can take those off.

In analyzing these published lists from architects I have found there is usually a logical explanation why a course is not listed.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Tilly listed Glen Ridge on his 1920 advertisement as a course that he was reconstruicting at that time, but NOT that way in the 1925 one which was being discussed. He listed under examination with report, something separate to that earlier work. He actually did examinations with reports at a number of clubs not listed that he either originally designed or renovated, at different times and separate from the actual work. In some cases these precipitated the work and in others, later.

Also, he listed the Atlantic Beach Golf Club but he didn't list the Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Hotel Links course which was separate and distinct. The Lilliputt Links opened for play on 12/3/1915 to great fanfare and media coverage. The Golf Club opened on 12/6/1915, three days later to none.

We just discovered the Lilliputt Links in the last two weeks which is another reason I included it. Yes, I have the dates for all of those courses including the actual opening days for a number of them. I know you're getting tired of hearing my "no" answer to if I'll share because of the timeline i'm working on, but I'm getting close to finishing it and when published I am sure that it will be the subject of much discussion. I will say that every date I give will be totally verifiable and the timeline will come complete with ciotations and notations...

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
We can bicker about how he listed the courses or if he should have listed them twice under two categories, but the bottom line is he listed both Glen Ridge and Atlantic Beach.

I never get tired of you saying no. I'll just use the dates from your Tillinghast book or if I have a better date I'll use that.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
Do you think it is reasonable to expect Tilly to list Cobbs Creek?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

No problem, but the Atlantic Beach Course is listed as an 18-hole original design which is what the Atlantic Beach Golf Club was. The 9-hole Lilliputt Links course of the Atlantic Beach Hotel is a separate and distinct design and construction. That is why Tilly listed 6 Lilliputt Links last as a separate category in the 1925 advertisement. If they were included as part of the Atlantioc Beach reference in the ad then it would have listed it as a 27-hole project as he did with 4 other projects. There are other Lilliputt Links courses that Tilly did that weren't listed.

The reason why the 1925 advertisement is important is that itv gives information that in a number of cases can't be found anywhere else. For example, since I mentioned the 27-hole projects, he lists Fort Sam Houston under it. He states that it was "Planned but construction halted by war." This leads one to believe that he planned it as three nines from the beginning; he didn't.

In October 1915 he designed an 18-hole course which was built the following year and opened for play. We know this because of the newspaper accounts from the San Antonio Light newspaper which not only reoports this, but gives a course routing drawn by Tilly and a hole-by-hole description of the entire course. A copy of this is on the Tillinghast Association website. He was then asked back to design another nine holes. It is this part of the project that was held up by war and would be delayed until the early 1930s.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I just missed your other question, "Do you think it is reasonable to expect Tilly to list Cobbs Creek?" That's a tough one to answer. In 1912 he gave "several complete course designs" to the Park Commission (see, I gave you a date!), noting that with each of them that not a single tree would need to be cut down. So these plans weren't simple stick line drawings and might very well fall into the category of "Examinations and Reports." On the other hand, since they obviously went nowhere and this was an advertisement for more work, listing them with Cobbs Creek having now been designed and built by others and well-known as such might have been counter-productive. That is why I am bothered by a different question.

For me, the real question is why did he list the courses as he did? There is absolutely no rhyme, reason or order in which he did so. They aren't listed by State, not alphabetical nor by date. I am of the opinion that he dictated the list to his secretary off the top of his head. That would certainly explain why several of the courses listed actually show an incorrect city location for the club. But honestly, that is just a guess.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"What year did the Harmonie club disengage from the North Shore Golf Club ?"

Pat:

Excellent question.
I was talking with Steve today about this and it seem sort of complicated but I'm confident he is totally armed with the correct answers. Things seemed to get a tad complicated when one considers a development company that had to do with the NS property back then.


TEPaul,

The membership at the Harmonie club was filled with successful people.
I wonder if the developers were also members.

I find club histories, especially those that meet any form of demise very interesting.

Clubs are usually created by men of action and vision, but, what's far more fascinating to me is how clubs lose their way, get sold, or simply fold, especially when the clubs demise had nothing to do with conditions created by the Great Depression or WWII.

North Shore's is a little difficult to get to, so perhaps, location, location, location had something to do with it.

It's a pretty neat course, one that's enjoyable to play day in and day out.

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

Glen Ridge and Atlantic Beach are included on Tilly's list; Cobbs Creek was Hugh Wilson, et. al. and Niagara Falls was Nicol Thompson. Four down and six to go.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The membership at the Harmonie club was filled with successful people.
I wonder if the developers were also members."


Pat:

That's a very good question. I'm tending to doubt it. There may've been some kind of development company that was in the process of selling to a couple of interested entites----one being the Harmonie Club people and some other group. Or perhaps there was just another group interested in the same land at that time (there's some mention of a Crescent Club or a Brooklyn Cresent organization) I'm not totally sure about it but I think one member of either a development company or perhaps the other group interested in buying that Scudder land was H.W. Hollins.

Do you know who H.W. Hollins was, Pat?  

Among other things he was a founder of NGLA, he was very closely connected to Vanderbilt and he was married to a Knapp---eg Joseph Knapp an even more prominent founder of NGLA who was actually sort of part of CBM's design team. He had a big 600 acre place in South Islip called Meadowfarm and he was a big Wall Street player. He was Harry Hollins, and he was also Marion's father. I'll check it out but I think he pretty much went broke right around that time.

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

Elmsford CC (now known as Elmwood CC) in White Plains, NY was founded in 1925, but was not constructed and ready for play until 1926. At the end of his list Tilly has sites he has examined and reported upon, the last site he lists is White Plains, NY. This course is listed too. Five down and five to go.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You stated that, "Glen Ridge and Atlantic Beach are included on Tilly's list; Cobbs Creek was Hugh Wilson, et. al. and Niagara Falls was Nicol Thompson. Four down and six to go."

You are is such a rush to disprove every course I listed that you both make mistakes and not pay attention to what was written.

Once again, and for the final time, GLEN RIDGE and ATLANTIC BEACH LILLIPUTT LINKS are NOT included in the list. Glen Ridge is listed under "Examinations and Reports". This is separate from the reconstruction work that Tilly did in there in 1920 as he clearly listed in his 1920 advertisement. The 1920 work at Glen Ridge was not included in the 1925 advertisement.

The Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links course for the Atlantic Beach hotel was a SEPARATE and DISTINCT course & project. It is NOT listed under the Lilliputt Links section. If you want to believe that it is included under the "Original Design" section, then you must clearly recognize that it ALL of the other Lilliputt Links courses were Original Designs and NONE of them were. Finally, if it were part of the same Original Design reference, Atlantic Beach would have been listed under "27 Holes" which it was not. The Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links was not included in the 1925 advertisement.

Cobb's Creek WAS clearly Hugh Wilson. I NEVER stated that Tilly designed it. I stated that Tilly gave several complete design PROPOSALS to the Park Commission in 1913. This should then have been included in his "Examinations and Reports" section. It was not.

From the Niagara Falls CC website - "Originally designed by A.W. Tillinghast in 1919 updated by Robert Trent Jones, Geoffrey S. Cornish and Brian M. Silva." Of course that isn't enough for you, so lets take it further. You give credit to Nicol Thompson. Here is what the club's official history states about Thompson and Tilly:

"Thompson subsequently engaged A.W. Tillinghast... during the summer of 1917 to assist in the design of the golf holes. For his work in the design, Tillinghast was paid the princely sum of $254.90... The course as designed by Tillinghast would be eighteen holes with the first tee located where we now have the tenth tee. The first nine holes of the course are now the back nine and contained a 195-yard par 3 as hole #3. Holes number four and five were located... The course at the Niagara Falls Country Club was among the first courses that A.W. Tillinghast designed... On May 10, 191, the new home of the Niagara Falls Country Club formally opened its doors... At the time of its opening, nine holes were available for play and were deemed to 'compare favorably with the best in the country.' The full 18-hole course would be opened by June 1 [1919]." Tilly designed Niagara Falls CC and it wasn't included in the 1925 advertisement.

Elmsford CC - When you state, "At the end of his list Tilly has sites he has examined and reported upon, the last site he lists is White Plains, NY" you ASSUME that he is referring to Elmsford when he makes that statement. Tilly not only visited other sites in White Plains he BUILT other courses in White Plains. Yet going beyond that, the problem with your reasoning on this one is that you are missing what Tilly listed in the ENTIRE advertisement including the FRONT PAGE. There he listed 11 courses that he was CURRENTLY on. This work ranged from the design process to full construction but not open for play. This is easy to do as I ALSO made this mistake for the Rockaway Hunting Club is listed there and I should not have included it in my list. In 1925 Tilly was working on the design of Elmsford and it should have been listed on the front page. It wasn't.

So Tom, not a single course that you claim has been eliminated has.

In fact, the only one that should be eliminated is the Rockaway Hunting Club from the list of courses that I gave you. That was a mistake and I clearly admit it.

As I said when I originally posted the list, I was giving examples of courses from every category and did so. I also stated that there are a number of other courses that weren't included and state such again.

This whole exercise is to simply help you understand that Tilly's not including North Shore in that 1925 advertisement was reasonable for HIS OWN PURPOSES as it is NOT an exhaustive or complete listing of all his work to that time, something that you take it to be.

I will not argue over this and as I feel I've been quite clear in explaining each and every disagreement you take to the list, will not comment again about it. Accept my explanations or not.

[TEPaul]

Ooooh, Lalalala-----LALA-----are you birds in for an information treat when our new deep-penetration research superstar returns from the field! Well, maybe "the field" isn't the best way to describe Gotham. Way to go Batman!  

[Tom MacWood]

Once again, and for the final time, GLEN RIDGE and ATLANTIC BEACH LILLIPUTT LINKS are NOT included in the list. Glen Ridge is listed under "Examinations and Reports". This is separate from the reconstruction work that Tilly did in there in 1920 as he clearly listed in his 1920 advertisement. The 1920 work at Glen Ridge was not included in the 1925 advertisement.

Glen Ridge is listed. You may not like where it is listed or how it is listed, but it is listed nonetheless. We are attempting to discover why North Shore is not listed at all; that is why I asked you to identify other projects he did not list. By the way Tilly's partner Peter Lees took credit for Glen Ridge for whatever that's worth.

The Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links course for the Atlantic Beach hotel was a SEPARATE and DISTINCT course & project. It is NOT listed under the Lilliputt Links section. If you want to believe that it is included under the "Original Design" section, then you must clearly recognize that it ALL of the other Lilliputt Links courses were Original Designs and NONE of them were. Finally, if it were part of the same Original Design reference, Atlantic Beach would have been listed under "27 Holes" which it was not. The Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links was not included in the 1925 advertisement.

It was the same project. Tilly wrote an article dated February 1916 in which he explained both courses were planned in August 1915, the Lilliput links opened before Xmas 1915 and the full 18 on January 8, 1916. Have you read that article?

Cobb's Creek WAS clearly Hugh Wilson. I NEVER stated that Tilly designed it. I stated that Tilly gave several complete design PROPOSALS to the Park Commission in 1913. This should then have been included in his "Examinations and Reports" section. It was not.

I have my doubts about any proposal he did in 1913 for Cobbs Creek. But even if Tilly did present a proposal that was rejected, why would he list it 12 years after it was rejected, especially since the ultimate design was not something he collaborated upon or contributed to? That makes no sense.

From the Niagara Falls CC website - "Originally designed by A.W. Tillinghast in 1919 updated by Robert Trent Jones, Geoffrey S. Cornish and Brian M. Silva." Of course that isn't enough for you, so lets take it further. You give credit to Nicol Thompson. Here is what the club's official history states about Thompson and Tilly:

"Thompson subsequently engaged A.W. Tillinghast... during the summer of 1917 to assist in the design of the golf holes. For his work in the design, Tillinghast was paid the princely sum of $254.90... The course as designed by Tillinghast would be eighteen holes with the first tee located where we now have the tenth tee. The first nine holes of the course are now the back nine and contained a 195-yard par 3 as hole #3. Holes number four and five were located... The course at the Niagara Falls Country Club was among the first courses that A.W. Tillinghast designed... On May 10, 191, the new home of the Niagara Falls Country Club formally opened its doors... At the time of its opening, nine holes were available for play and were deemed to 'compare favorably with the best in the country.' The full 18-hole course would be opened by June 1 [1919]." Tilly designed Niagara Falls CC and it wasn't included in the 1925 advertisement.

$254 is a princely sum? Nicol Thompson was an accomplished golf architect in his own right. The fact that Tilly assisted Thompson should be explanation enough as to why he did not include the design.

Elmsford CC - When you state, "At the end of his list Tilly has sites he has examined and reported upon, the last site he lists is White Plains, NY" you ASSUME that he is referring to Elmsford when he makes that statement. Tilly not only visited other sites in White Plains he BUILT other courses in White Plains. Yet going beyond that, the problem with your reasoning on this one is that you are missing what Tilly listed in the ENTIRE advertisement including the FRONT PAGE. There he listed 11 courses that he was CURRENTLY on. This work ranged from the design process to full construction but not open for play. This is easy to do as I ALSO made this mistake for the Rockaway Hunting Club is listed there and I should not have included it in my list. In 1925 Tilly was working on the design of Elmsford and it should have been listed on the front page. It wasn't.

Use some common sense. How many of those White Plains projects were in the developmental stage in 1925?

So Tom, not a single course that you claim has been eliminated has.

In fact, the only one that should be eliminated is the Rockaway Hunting Club from the list of courses that I gave you. That was a mistake and I clearly admit it.

As I said when I originally posted the list, I was giving examples of courses from every category and did so. I also stated that there are a number of other courses that weren't included and state such again.

This whole exercise is to simply help you understand that Tilly's not including North Shore in that 1925 advertisement was reasonable for HIS OWN PURPOSES as it is NOT an exhaustive or complete listing of all his work to that time, something that you take it to be.

I will not argue over this and as I feel I've been quite clear in explaining each and every disagreement you take to the list, will not comment again about it. Accept my explanations or not.

[Tom MacWood]

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

Six down and four to go.

[Phil_the_Author]

"Six down and four to go. "

So Tom, evidently you only see what you want to? 

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
What do you see here? I'll post the article associated with the pictures later.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "What do you see here?"

I see TWO COURSES totalling 27 holes. NOT 18 holes which is what Tilly advertised. I see a REGULATION golf course AND a LILLIPUTT LINKS golf course which is what Tilly designed but is NOT what Tilly advertised. Sorry Tom, but you simply can't accept that he left this course off his list when he did.

Were they part of the same project? YES! Did Tilly advertise BOTH of them in 1925? NO!

Feel free to believe what you do and "disprove" what you want... 

p.s. - Yes, I believe I have the article as I have several with those pictures. I also have other photos taken at that time of the two different courses.

[Tom MacWood]

The Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links course for the Atlantic Beach hotel was a SEPARATE and DISTINCT course & project. It is NOT listed under the Lilliputt Links section. If you want to believe that it is included under the "Original Design" section, then you must clearly recognize that it ALL of the other Lilliputt Links courses were Original Designs and NONE of them were. Finally, if it were part of the same Original Design reference, Atlantic Beach would have been listed under "27 Holes" which it was not. The Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links was not included in the 1925 advertisement.

Phil
You said the 9-hole Lilliputt Links course of the Atlantic Beach Hotel was a separate and distinct project and construction from the Atlantic Beach CC course. You were both wrong and misleading. They were the same project and construction, and it makes perfect sense why Tilly listed the way he did, and why the hotel and country club listed it the way they did. They are not going to list it as a 27-hole complex when 9 of those holes are a pitch & putt. Use common sense.

Here is an advert for the hotel and the listing of the country club from the golf course guide. Neither mentions the pitch-and-putt course, why would you expect Tilly to do so?  

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
The membership at the Harmonie club was filled with successful people.
I wonder if the developers were also members."


Pat:

That's a very good question. I'm tending to doubt it. There may've been some kind of development company that was in the process of selling to a couple of interested entites----one being the Harmonie Club people and some other group. Or perhaps there was just another group interested in the same land at that time (there's some mention of a Crescent Club or a Brooklyn Cresent organization) I'm not totally sure about it but I think one member of either a development company or perhaps the other group interested in buying that Scudder land was H.W. Hollins.

Do you know who H.W. Hollins was, Pat?    NO, I don't.

But, I do know who H. B. Hollins was.

Who was H.W. Hollins ?  

Among other things he was a founder of NGLA, he was very closely connected to Vanderbilt and he was married to a Knapp---eg Joseph Knapp an even more prominent founder of NGLA who was actually sort of part of CBM's design team. He had a big 600 acre place in South Islip called Meadowfarm and he was a big Wall Street player. He was Harry Hollins, and he was also Marion's father. I'll check it out but I think he pretty much went broke right around that time.

TEPaul, I think you're confused.
Harry W Hollins was a con artist often posing as Harry B. Hollins.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

It is you that are wrong. Tilly designed the 18-hole Atlantaic Beach Golf Club course well before the Lilliputt Links course. They were NOT designed together nor was construction of both started at the same time. They finished at near identical times because of the nature of what the Lilliputt Links was in size and scope.

Believe it or not they were separate and distinct projects and not part of each other yet they were the same project as Tilly used the same crew to build the LL that he did the Golf Club.

Your problem with this is that because you are so intent on proving me wrong you miss what Tilly was doing with this advertisement. That is why you missed the EXACT same situation with a course that Tilly listed as a 27-hole project in the same advertisement. In that example it was a regulation course and a small 9-hole course. Go ahead, I'm sure you can identify it. So if Tilly WAS including the LL course in Atlantic Beach he would have listed it as a 27-hole project... he DIDN'T! Now the question is why wouldn't he? The two courses at AB were built for DIFFERENT clientelle. That is why the American Golf Guide (which is another publication that is NOT comprehensive) only lists the Golf Club. By the way, on the front of the advertisement you'll see the Davis Shores project and the Davis Island project. BOTH were contracted at the same time for the same owner with one being a regulation 36-hole project while the other was a 9-hole Lilliputt Links project... they are listed SEPARATELY! So on the same document, for reasons of Tilly's own choosing, we have one example where the two separate project portions are listed separately, a second one where they are listed together and a third one where the LL is NOT LISTED. 

Tilly listed courses in every category the way he did because the job listed fit the category. He even listed the Knollwood CC TWICE IN TWO SEPARATE CATEGORIES! He listed it as an 18-hole original design and ALSO listed it under Examinations and Reports. The reason he did that is because he did BOTH jobs on TWO separate occasions for the club, just as he did with Glen Ridge though he only listed that under E&P!

Tilly chose to NOT include  the Atlantic Beach Lilliputt Links course in the Lilliputt Links portion just as he DIDN'T include at least one other that I know of and left it out of the advertisement.  

Say as you will, this is my last comment on this...

[Tom MacWood]

~