North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor

[Steve_ Shaffer]

See my post #9 above:



Tillinghast's fee,construction included, amounted to $75,000...."  emphasis added

I might add that Quirin's piece starts out in quotes from Goldmark about the history of Harmonie. Quirin goes on to say "And so wrote Emil Goldmark..." Obviously, one can draw the conclusion that Quirin actually saw something in writing to put it in quotes,ie, the minutes. I'll gladly fax what I have to anyone who wants it as my daughter has the scanner that was previously in my house. Just PM me.

[TEPaul]

"And, how nice of you to volunteer!"


Mr. Jeffrey:

No problem at all. I'll set this up on the phone with North Shore CC before I take off from Philly and once on LI this is no more than two miles out of my way. Whatever the outcome of this question this is pretty much another one of those mountains made out of a mole-hill by a GOLFCLUBATLASER, in my opinion. One really does wonder why he does it and has done it the same way for so long on here. I've wondered about that for years. I have what I think the answer is but it's probably best I just keep it to myself.

[Phil_the_Author]

This is definitely my last comment as I see now that I should not have even attempted to come back...

Tom Mac, as is usual you twist and misstate what I said, "Regarding Phil's speculation that Tilly actually designed Wolf Hollow and White built it..."

I did NOT speculate or state in ANY WAY that Tilly designed Wolf Hollow and that White built... I said the EXACT OPPOSITE! This is what I wrote you should be able to understand it:

"To this day there are a number of White courses that believed that Tilly had actually designed them and White had built them when, in fact, White had been aided by Tilly to get the job. A good example of this is the Wolf Hollow CC..."

There is NO WAY you can twist that statement into my "SPECULATING" that Tilly designed the course and that White built it. I clearly stated that WHITE GOT THE JOB!

This just wasn't worth it...
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

Take two aspirin and call me in the morning!

Why in this exchange am I reminded of the old saying "ships that pass in the night?"  I have noted several easily mis stated facts based on misreading of other's posts. I would say more, but I probably wouldn't get my facts right somewhere along the way.....of course, that is just speculation on my part!

[Tom MacWood]

     To answer the question about Tilly not including North Shore on his list of courses in his 1925 advertising brochure... It isn't the only one he didn't include. There are a number of courses ranging from original designs to renovations that are not on that list. It is a large one but by no means complete.
      As to why he didn't include North Shore in it, there are any number of "speculative" reasons ranging from he forgot to he purposefully chose not to.
      Also, Tilly first used models in his design work in 1909 when he began his design of Shawnee. What has been forgotten in this discussion when the subject of models have been brought up is just how difficult they were to make from plasticene. It took a great deal of skill and artistic talent which is why most architects either didn't use them or hired someone to make them for them. Tilly personally made them and expected the workers to match exactly on the ground the details he put in the models.
      Robert White was hired in 1913 by Tilly in his position as Shawnee CC Club Secretary. White was not used to redesign Shawnee; Tilly did. The first redesign was also a complete course rerouting and added 50+ yards to the course. The redesign and beginning of the work began in the summer of 1912 and continued through 1913. White came to Shawnee when the work was nearly complete and he was specifically hired because he was an outstanding turf specialist. Tilly wrote in the American Golfer about his hiring and stated that the "grow-in of the turf" of the new course was handed over to him to care for. This not only shows that the design and construction work was completed but that he was viewed by all at that time as one of the foremost greenkeeper/turf experts in the country.
      White was later used by Tilly to oversee construction on a number of his designs and Tilly would actually aid White when he finally opened his own design business. To this day there are a number of White courses that believed that Tilly had actually designed them and White had built them when, in fact, White had been aided by Tilly to get the job. A good example of this is the Wolf Hollow CC which was the host site for the Eastern Open in the early 1920s. There was even a discussion on this exact subject regarding Tilly at Wolf Hollow on here a couple of years ago.
      White wasn't the only person who worked for Tilly that he aided in starting out on his own at that time. Willard Wilkinson was another. Tilly actually turned over three contracted new designs to him for that specific purpose.
      Finally, the Harmonie Club records at the New York Historical Society are quite detailed and specific. They include "The Minutes of the Board of Governors of the North Shore Country Club is composed of typed papers inserted into a three hole binder. The Country Club was established March 13, 1914 for the benefit of the Harmonie Club members and its Board of Governors was composed of Harmonie Club officers. The minutes include budgets, expenses, renovation plans, and description of the grounds."
      Now even though the North Shore CC was legally established on 3/13/1914, as an entity it was in existence for nearly a year previously. Its purpose was to locate land or a club that the members could purchase on Long Island to serve as a private Country Club for use of the entire membership. We know this because the archive also specifically contains the "Minutes Board of Governors North Shore Country Club, Inc, 1913 March 31 - 1918 November 26."
      One of the reasons that the records of the Harmonie Club can be trusted in this area is because of who the membership was and how, in years to come, they would use their historical records to protect their membership and community in the face of persecution. They therefore take GREAT pride in their history and are quite secure in its accuracy.
      I intend for this to be my one and only comment on this thread as I certainly want to see the discussion continue on in the cooperative spirit that it has been maintaining...
    
I made a correction for those who noticed. Tilly began making plasticene models in 1909 NOT 1919 as I mistakenly Typo'd!

Phil
I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying about Wolf Hollow. I've read this long post of yours and I did not find any reference to Tilly being involved at North Shore...please correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you have any evidence of Tilly's involvement at North Shore?

[TEPaul]

At the moment, the question on North Shore CC's course comprehensive redesign in 1914/1915 seems to be was Tillinghast involved in that redesign (that measures up to bona fide architectural attribution) and paid for it with Robert White perhaps working on that redesign in 1914/15 as NS's greenkeeper and construction man for Tillinghast or was Tillinghast not involved with North Shore at all with Robert White working on the 1914-15 redesign project as the club's greenskeeper, construction man AND architect?

Is that a fair question or statement? If so, why don't we all just wait to see what these club records or archives that are apparently reposited in the New York Historical Society have to say on the subject?

I'm willing to stop in at the North Shore CC about this if those records are there because it's in the vicinity of a few other clubs I'm going to next month but I doubt I'll volunteer to go into NYC and the New York Historical Society on this matter at that time.

Phil:

I hope you don't plan on leaving again because I would love to know what you may know about when Robert White actually did get into the golf architectural business. You mentioned above you think Tillinghast helped him get into the business and get some jobs. I have always been very interested in Robert White because he was the professional (greenskeeper/clubmaker?) at Myopia for a time in the late 1890s and I also really admire some of his courses, the primary one I'm familiar with being Longue Vue in Pittsburgh. Not to mention that in a number of other ways he seemed to be a most interesting factor in some other areas of American golf and for a good long time.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is another article on the development of North Shore, from August 1915.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Who do you think actually designed the comprehensive redo of North Shore's golf course in 1914/15? It appears you are implying it was Robert White. Is that correct?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Here we have the typical problem with old newspaper clippings - one posted on this thread says the $75K was spent on the clubhouse, leaving presumably $25K for the course, while this one shows a pix of the clubhouse, but says the $75K is going to be spent to toughen the golf course.

So, which was written by the lazy old drunk at the newspaper who never left the office, but collected material and which was written by the eager young cub reporter who went out and got the facts?  We may never reconcile the old stuff, but its still probably a better source than a lot of things.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom Paul

It is indeed Tom MacWood's assertion that White  designed the revision at North Shore:

He said this above:

"I have not found any mention Tilly being involved at any time, and the course is not included in his advertised list of designs published in the mid-20s. I've found no mention of Raynor either. I believe the bulk of the credit should go to White.'

And yet he goes on to say in post 10 in response to my post 9:

I've read that version too, but I've never found any contemporaneous mention of Tilly being involved.

The truth lies in the minutes of North Shore located in the archives of the NY Historical Society.If I can, I'm going to squeeze in a day from my busy December schedule to visit there. Dr. Quirin had access to those minutes;otherwise, he wouldnot have written what he did about Tilly being paid $75000 for his services including construction. See my post 9 above.

[tlavin]

Nothing like an old-fashioned dust-up about the architectural provenance of an old club to get the blood going early in the morning.

[Tom MacWood]

These blurbs are from American Golfer from 1914 and 1915 detailing Tilly's architectural projects; AWT wrote for American Golfer. The four projects mentioned - Shawnee, Aronomink, St. Petersburg and Old York Road - were all included on Tilly's master list in 1925. North Shore was not included on his list. I've yet to read an explanation why North Shore was not included among his list of his designs or redesigns.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

Who do you think actually designed the comprehensive redo of North Shore's golf course in 1914/15? It appears you are implying it was Robert White. Is that correct?

TEP
At this point the evidence points toward White. He is the only architect whose name can be positively linked to the project. No one has produced any Tillinghast connection and no one has been able to explain why Tilly did not list the course as one of his designs or redesigns.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
At this point the evidence points toward White. He is the only architect whose name can be positively linked to the project. No one has produced any Tillinghast connection and no one has been able to explain why Tilly did not list the course as one of his designs or redesigns."


Tom MacWood:

Thanks. That's fine for now and one or some of us will get back to you on that with the research material apparently available at the New York Historical Society which may be determinant on this subject and question which obviously you are not willing to make the effort to look at or carefully analyze. It looks like Steve Shaffer will be making the effort to do it soon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Shaffer,

Is that the same Harmonie club, founded in 1852, that's located at East 60th and 5th ?

Tom MacWood,

What's interesting about the newspaper clippings is the different town names listed for the site.

Hempstead is well south of North Shore, but, North Hempstead is nearby.
Today, I believe the waterway is known as Roslyn Harbor, with Glen Cove, Sea Cliff and other towns nearby.
Perhaps the towns were renamed as they grew or were subdivided.

North Shore is an enjoyable golf course and, being near the water it gets a good breeze.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

Yes, it's one and the same. It's still there and has been the center of some recent controversy concerning 2 of its high profile former members.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Yes, it's one and the same. It's still there and has been the center of some recent controversy concerning 2 of its high profile former members.

I was there about two months ago.
It's a terrific club.
I'm aware of the controversy, which seems like a case of political correctness to me.

What year did the Harmonie club disengage from the North Shore Golf Club ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I'll have to research that question. North Shore was founded by the Harmonie Club. When a disengagement happened is a pure guess on my part now. Dr. Quirin does not mention anything about that in his piece. Perhaps the club minutes will say something.

[TEPaul]

"What year did the Harmonie club disengage from the North Shore Golf Club ?"


Pat:

Excellent question. I was talking with Steve today about this and it seem sort of complicated but I'm confident he is totally armed with the correct answers. Things seemed to get a tad complicated when one considers a development company that had to do with the NS property back then.
 
 

[Phil_the_Author]

I am posting this to clear up two matters that seem to have taken on a life of their own. The first is the question of what the $75,000 was spent on. The second is what meaning can be ascribed to Tilly's not including North Shore in his 1925 list of advertisements. It is meant as information and not for debate. Accept it or not is up to one and all.

Tom Macwood posted this on the previous page and it seems to keep being overlooked and is quite clear. From the August 1915 GOLF magazine p. 120 par. 1. Notice that not a single mention of work involving the clubhouse is mentioned. It is quite evident that the writer believes that the $75,000 is being spent on course improvements:

"Almost $75,000 is being spent by the North Shore Country Club of Glen head, Long Island, as a result of the widespread demand form more difficult golf courses for links over which it is some satisfaction to compile a good score. Almost a year must pass, but when the work on which the members have been engaged since February is accomplished they expect to have one of the strongest courses in the New York district..."

It seems to bother some that Tilly didn't include North Shore in his list of courses in his 1925 advertisement. There is an implication that the ad is a COMPLETE listing of all the courses that he worked on. Let me clear up this point once and for all... it isn't. Here is just a PARTIAL list of courses NOT INCLUDED. They range from original designs to renovations and additions to examinations with proposals to Lilliputt Links, just as Tilly included in his list. All were worked on BEFORE the advertisement was published:

Cobb's Creek proposal
Atlantic Beach Hotel Lilliputt Links
Niagara Falls CC
Mountain View Farm (Zucker Estate) today known as Dellwood CC
Wolfert's Roost
Glen Ridge CC
Suburban Country Club (Maryland)
Elmwood CC
Marble Island CC
Rockaway Hunting Club

Why didn't Tilly include North Shore in the list? Only he knows, the same as why he didn't include the courses above as well as the others that I haven't listed.

[DMoriarty]

Earlier in this thread I asked what I thought were a few rather simple and straight forward questions:

A few posters (Steve and Phillip, for example) seem to be claiming or at least implying that the information about Tillie's receipt of payment from North Shore came directly from the club's old meeting minutes.  

- Has anyone seen those minutes?  If so, what do the minutes say about the issue?

- Steve, did Mr. Quirin write that he got the specific information about the payment to Tillie from the minutes?  Or is it possible that he got the information from a source other than the minutes?

My purpose in asking was to try and verify whether or not the minutes actually do mention a payment of $75,000 to Tillie.   That seems like the logical place to start if anyone is actually interested in figuring out the extent of Tillinghast's involvement, if any.  

No one answered.  Does anyone care to?  

Steve, I believe you mentioned above something about trying to look at the actual minutes.  Have you had a chance to do so?   If so, what do they say?

Phillip, have you seen the minutes or any direct evidence that Tillie received $75,000 for the work?   

Again, I have no horse in this race, just trying to keep the conversation moving in a positive and productive direction.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I don't think anyone or even anyone on here really cares that much about the $75,000 issue or even the question of why Tillinghast didn't include North Shore on some of his lists of work he did. I think all anyone cares about on here or elsewise is whether Tillinghast was the architect who did the design work on the North Shore course in 1914 and 1915 or not and whether that course should be attributed to Tillinghast as its architect.

It seems like the best next place to find the answer to that is in those records reposited in the New York Historical Society.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Paul,

I disagree with you. The $75,000 question has been brought up several times as something that Tillinghast was paid. He wasn't. The $75,000 was the cost for the course reconstruction within which was included Tilly's fee.

Secondly, Tom has mentioned the non-listing of North Shore several times in a manner that seems to indicate that it has some bearing as to second-hand proof that someone other than Tilly designed North Shore. As I showed with the partial list that there are numerous courses which Tilly worked on that were not included. His not having included North Shore signifies nothing in this discussion.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David,

As I wrote in #59 above:

"The truth lies in the minutes of North Shore located in the archives of the NY Historical Society.If I can, I'm going to squeeze in a day from my busy December schedule to visit there. Dr. Quirin had access to those minutes;otherwise, he would not have written what he did about Tilly being paid $75000 for his services including construction. See my post 9 above."

As of now, I'm planning a trip to NY this Friday if I can fit it in to view the minutes. I'll certainly advise thereafter or whenever I can visit.

[TEPaul]

"The $75,000 question has been brought up several times as something that Tillinghast was paid. He wasn't. The $75,000 was the cost for the course reconstruction within which was included Tilly's fee."

Phil:

My thought was that was patently clear to anyone and everyone on this website that read it the first time other than Tom MacWood. He seems to ask questions and then get the answers and despite them just ask the same questions over and over and over again.

His constant question about Tillinghast's list of courses is of no real difference.

Nevertheless, despite those questions and answers the ultimate question is was Tillinghast the architect of that massive redesign of North Shore GC in 1914 and/or 1915 or wasn't he?

It looks to me like Steve Shaffer is going to be the best candidate to find that answer and when he comes back with what he finds and explains it if someone wants to disagree with it I suggest they visit the New York Historical Society as Steve Shaffer says he probably will this week.